Why I will never support a so-called "Palestinian" state

I really don't want to get into an argument with you. I respect your (non)religious beliefs, however, you do not respect mine or you would not ridicule people of faith (stupid, magic, wizardry, etc).

Perhaps I should have said your attitude toward foreign policy is narcissistic.

 

first let me say that i appreciate you reading and responding to my posts, and let me say that i try and be civil, but i have such strong opinions on the backwardness and stupididty of all religions, that it gets bothersome to many.

i believe judaism is a stupid ancient mysticism. many of my opinions are colored by the fact that i think all religions are the same, and are about as legitimate as voodoo and crystal balls and tarot cards. so when people kill are in religious conflicts i think they are being stupid, and i think the safe thing is to distance yourself from anyone who believes in magic enough to kill over it.

but being american means believing in rational concepts like freedom. being jewish means either born with a particular "jewish" DNA or being into their particular superstitions. like i said, if i was born "jewish", by the time i was old enough to think for myself, i would feel as much kinship with other jews as i currently do with other people who share my characteristic of blue eyes. it just doesnt matter to me. i feel no need to identify myself with such groups. it is tribalistic and foolish. i think it is irrational to maintain such stong ties with your ethnic/religious/genetic heritage. i dont feel like i need a movement for a blue-eyed homeland, because it would be pointless and especially if i decided it should be on the "holy" brown eyed sites. then we would fight and it would be over nothing.


it kinda amuses me how far we are from agreeing.

however, when it comes down to actual votes and politics, i suspect we end up voting for the same candidates.

 

The vast majority of Israelis are secularist. So attempting to inject religion into the conflict as a cause from an Israeli standpoint is analogous to claiming the earth is flat. It’s simply not reality. Indeed, in what way different have the Israelis reacted and responded to terrorism, to the way we reacted and responded to terrorism after we were attacked on 9/11? The answer to that question is the Israelis haven’t reacted or responded in any way that is different. So are you also claiming that the US’s war on terrorism from an American standpoint is also based on religion too?

That’s one of the most absurd, racist, and bigoted responses I think I’ve ever read. Lets see if I have all of this correct, if you are born Jewish, you are born with a particular "Jewish" DNA, which for some inexplicable reason predisposes you to certain particular superstitions. But if you are fortunate enough to be born American, like you are, you automatically believe in rational concepts like freedom. Okay. So to you, by the time Jews are old enough to think and act for themselves, they have some sort of irresistible undeniable kinship with fellow Jews like you do with people who share your characteristic of blue eyes. But because you are superior to everyone else and above it all you are immune to such pointless nonsense, but the Jews, I suppose because of a particular "Jewish" DNA and because they all have "holy" brown eyes, are not. Okay, If you say so!

 

quoted by Red55:
The Israelis have a democratic government, a free-market economy and are our only dependable ally in the region. They are just the kind of country we should be supporting. But they have to give up the land they grabbed, at some point, in exchange for peace. That is what worked in Sinai. Egypt wanted SInai back and Israel wanted peace with Egypt. So, the US brokered a deal where the Sinai reverted to Egypt and Egypt ended its war with Israel. How did we broker it? We US taxpayers gave Israel billions of dollars in new military equipment and did the same with Egypt, replacing their old Soviet equipment with American ones, making both side feel safer. In effect, America bought the Sinai for Egypt, ending the war.
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A lot of the money we give Isreal comes back here in terms of them buying military hardware.
Like another poster around here said, if we didn't give Isreal money we would have to
pay them or some other countries around the region to have military bases in the region.

Didn't the Clinton Administration broker a land for peace deal between the Isrealis and the Palestinians and the Palestinians backed out of it?

If that is the case why should Isreal give any land to the Palestinians?
If you have a war on both sides usually the party that surrenders looses the land or whatever is in dispute.
That has happened since the beginning of time.

If Isreal gives up any land it will only benefit further attacks against themselves because the Palestinians don't want land, thats why the same deal that worked in
Egypt will not work here.
The Palestinians only want war and to kill Isrealis until there all dead and that is one
reason why they support Hamas and terrorism in general.

Maybe if they could get rid of Arafat it would help but I don't think there will ever be
peace there sadly!

 

you arent understanding my point. but i appreciate your personal attacks.

i am saying this: identifying yourself with the tribe of your birth or the superstition you have been brainwashed with is stupid. this is true of christians and jews and any other religion, or any group who believes they have rights to a "holy" homeland.

pay attention! the point is exactly the opposite! i have no kinship with people who share this random characteristic with me! i do not want to push for the rights of the blue-eyed. i am not a baboon who must identify with a clan to feel comfortable. i have no need for a homeland based on genetic, ethnic or religious beliefs of any kind.

i have escaped the mentality brainwashed into christian american children. if i was born to a jewish family, i would escape their superstition in the same way i have escaped christianity, even though i was born into a christian family. i can only hope that i would believe in american ideals like freedom if i was born somewhere else. if i were jewish, i would quickly recognize how foolish my superstition was, and abandon it the way i have done christianity. i would not favor a homeland for people who share my same particular brand of beliefs in the supernatural.

people dont even notice that all their beliefs are dictated by them by their birth location and culture and not rational thinking. nobody seems to recognize that they are basing their lives on mystical beliefs, which would be entirely different, had they been born somewhere else. of the christians here who believe in jesus being their personal savior and the one true path to heaven, they would virtually all not think that had they been raised by jewish or muslim parents. i guess they stupidly believe that by random chance they happened to be born into the one true religion, while all the other losers are wrong. it literally drives me to distraction that people are so stupid. how come i can see the obvious, and people far smarter than me cannot? i dunno.

again, zionism is the belief that jews need a homeland, and that they deserve the "holy" land of israel. if you dispute the definition of zionism, i suppose that is your problem.

for jews to even bother to continue to identify themselves as "jews" is stupid.

furthermore the idea that land is your homeland based on your ethnicity is basically the definition of racism. i dont go claiming a white homeland do i? nope. i dont make stupid distinctions about what type of people deserve what, like zionists. i happily live in the most culturally diverse community in the world. i am the exact opposite of racist in this case! i think identifying and wanting things for your particular race is moronic! i will not kill for race or religion, i dont care about those stupid things! i do not have white pride or march in st patricks day parades celebrating my irish genetic background. i am completely independent of this stupid tribalism. if i was in ireland, i would not battle with protestants against the catholics, i would wish them both harm for caring about their dumbass crap!

the problem is not with my mentality, it is with yours. i have ideals i care about, concepts based on rationality. i would fight for freedom. i would fight for liberty and private property. i would not fight for whites or jews. i would not fight for religions and wizardry. i would fight for real things. the less we get involved with people drawing lines between ethnic groups and fighting, the better off we are. the idea that an ethnicity or religious group needs a homeland will always cause war. cant people see that?

 

What do you mean? The Israelis have learned through the school of hard knocks that every time you concede to terrorism you only get back more and greater terrorism in return. What do you expect them to do, not heed what they have learned the hard way and make even further concessions and thereby encourage and suffer more and even greater terrorism? That would be insane!

As for as the US goes, costing us a fortune, hardly, and with respect to losing credibility, you’re dreaming. That presumes that we had credibility to begin with, and with the Arab and European worlds united in alliance against Israel and the US since in the seventies, we didn’t have any credibility to begin with in the first place, at least not with them.

Reality is before the Oslo peace process began when Israel still administered the disputed territories, the so-called Palestinian Arabs, after the Israeli Arabs, were by far the most affluent and best-educated Arabs in the entire Middle East. Since the Oslo peace process was signed and began in 1993, the PA authority created in 1994, and the Palestinian Arab rule by Arafat began, the Palestinian Arabs have reverted back to being your average run of the mill dirt poor backwards Arabs. Of course, all of this was by very strict design, because no matter what the Left naively believes, Arafat and the entire Arab and Islamic worlds never had and never will have any other intention but the complete destruction of the state of Israel, and that is because Allah forbids the conceding of holy Islamic land to infidels. To deny this fact is to deny all reality.

What land grab are you talking about? Per all international laws, acquisition of territory via defensive war is legal to hold and keep as deterrence from aggressive wars. It is only when it comes to Jews and the state of Israel that this longstanding international law happens to be ignored, by a UN that has been totally hijacked and is, except for the US’s lone veto, almost totally controlled by the Organization of Islamic Countries.

Reality is Israel captured the territories in question in a defensive war fought in 1967 that it had to fight after it was attacked by armies from Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq, including the aid and assistance of other Arab and Islamic countries. Moreover, the territory that it captured was necessary for Israel to keep in order to provide a defensive buffer and protection from further future attacks. Israel relinquishing those territories today would only encourage and greatly increase the probability of further and future attacks and war.

Additionally, you are acting like there was previously a Palestinian state. However, nothing could be further from the truth. Reality is prior to the 1967 war, Jordan illegally occupied the so-called Westbank and East Jerusalem and the Egyptians illegally occupied the Gaza Strip, and neither of those countries ever intended to create a Palestinian state. Furthermore, both of those countries also gave up any and all claims they may previously have had when they concluded their respective peace treaties with Israel.

There are many Israelis living in Israel today that wouldn’t exactly define that so-called peace with Egypt as a real and true peace. Indeed, Egypt smuggles weapons and terrorists into Gaza on almost a daily basis, refuses to dispatch or maintain diplomatic relations with Israel, and the Egyptian state controlled media ruthlessly and relentlessly demonizes and attacks Israel on a daily basis.

Reality is the deal was already self-brokered between Begin and Sadat, but they needed international credibility if the deal was to be viewed and accepted as legitimate by the international community, since Sadat was being very courageous by going against the interest and wishes of the rest of the Arab and Islamic worlds. So that is the reason they approached the US and the Carter administration. From that point on it was just a matter of both Begin and Sadat playing up Carter and the US and milking him for concessions since he was as dumb as a rock. Indeed, they both made off like bandits.

Additionally, at the time, the deal hardly ended Israel’s constant state of war with the rest of the Arab world, because the rest of the Arab world still refused to negotiate with Israel as per UN resolutions 242 and 338.

I guess if you propagandize something and revise history enough most people will come to eventually believe it. Actually, the Israelis don’t occupy anyone’s land but their own land since never before in history was there a state called Palestine or before 1970 an Arab people called Palestinians.

Additionally, the creation of a Palestinian state would mean the creation of another totalitarian terrorist state, and the world already has way too many of them. What would that solve? Absolutely nothing! It would only lead to further and greater war and bloodshed. That’s the last thing the world needs right now.

At the present time there are only two possible solutions that stand a chance of working: The Elon Plan, which encompasses making the Palestinian Arabs Jordanian citizens, or the creation of a semi-autonomous Palestinian state under the sovereignty of Israel. Of course, such a state would still have to depend on Israel for its defense and protection of its borders.

Oh and let me clear one thing up for you like I tried to do with Martin, from an Israeli perspective, religion has nothing to do with anything except for the fact that for the Arab and Islamic worlds religion has everything to do with the conflict since Allah forbids the conceding of holy Islamic land to infidels. Indeed, the Israelis as a population are far more secularist than the population of America. You wouldn’t say America’s war against terrorism is religiously motivated would you?

This conflict has never been about only so-called occupied land. That is just so much phony propaganda it isn’t even funny. To the Arab and Islamic worlds, as for as they are all concerned, the entire state of Israel is occupied land since Israelis are non-Muslim infidels and the Arab and Islamic worlds will never accept that concession since it is sacrileges for them to do so! The sooner you understand and realize that dire fact, the sooner you will begin to understand what drives and motivates this conflict.