Why Everyone hates Universal health care

No, I think there is very little that the government can do better than the private sector.
Health care aint one of em!:nope:
Neither is running GM

Martin's post is pretty much spot on.
Sea weed and rice is healthier than the garbage we eat.
I know that I have read about Japanese and other healthy cultures coming to America, they start eating our diet and develop the same health problems.

Lets talk about how fat kids are compared to when i grew up.
I believe that there is a link between fat kids and diabetes today.
Well lets talk about how the public school system has eliminated PE and exercise out of the kids day compared to what some of us older people experienced.
I was chubby until jr high PE class helped me slim down.

 

Unless you feel the goal of healthcare is to make a profit, the private sector has done a horrible job with healthcare. The biggest medicinal discovery in the last ten years is viagra. There's little incentive to invest the billions nevcessary to research cures for ailments like cancer because there's no immediate financial return. The biggest issue with the health of Americans as you pointed out is the junk we put in our bodies. There's little emphasis from the medical community on preventative measures than there is on correcting problems because healthy people don't have a need to give money to physicians, they don't undergo expensive tests that pay for expensive medical equipment and they don't use a lot of medicine.

It's funny you should mention GM because it's the same reason why American cars are no longer built to last: too much money to be made selling parts.

Maybe, just maybe the health of Americans would improve if money was taken out of the equation. Money is no issue to a family when faced with making decisions regarding the health of a loved one. No one will ever say "Pull the plug on grandma because I can't afford the bill". No one should have to.

The argument of "who will pay for it" is a moot one. The same people who are currently paying for it will continue to pay for it. Insurance premiums are at an all time high to allow for people who are not paying for insurance and will never pay their medical bills. It's why you see $100 for a hospital gown and $500 for a routine test that actually costs much, much less because hospitals and physicians have to find a way to recoup costs.

Surely you know all of this. It's not new...

 

No, you have it all wrong.
There are plenty of physicians and food pyramids around that give advice but people choose to ignore them much the way they abuse alcohol and tobacco and other substances.
People are free in this country to eat and live the way they would like as long as it doesn't harm others.

I think you are totally wrong, the money involved is what makes our health care system the best in the world.
Everything is just the opposite of what you have stated so far.
Most of our medications go to other countries such as the ones with socialized medicine.
That is what one debate is about, medications returning to the states from Canada.

This is because our healthcare system is so good.
Years ago grandma would have just died, she wouldn't be on a machine.

I don't know about that.
I think its more about how much is this going to cost and how to keep prices down.
Get the government out of the way and costs will go down.
Nothing drives up prices more than government dictating ones salaries and prices such as medicaid, Obamacare.
Quit giving free healthcare and food stamps to illegals.
Take away regulations so that if you live in Colorado you can buy insurance in Nebraska or Utah.
Do these things for starters and prices will go down.

 

I disagree here?
Maybe you know more than I?
Please explain into detail?
I think its just the opposite?

My daughter was on Traclear along with sildenafil for a few years.
That is a newer drug than sildneafil.
There also is a machine out on the market for treating cancer I've heard about.
There was also a breakthrough I heard about on the radio a few weeks ago about treating lung cancer.
My understanding is that there is plenty incentive to invest in research and cures because it is the nature of capitalism and the healthcare we have had up until now.
Why else would people on the left complain about these investors making a profit?

Btw, Healthcare has to make a profit or it won't be able to stay in business.
It won't be able to pay all the medical employees, medical equipment, etc.
Government is the only thing that doesn't have to make a profit, it can always raise prices and taxes.

 

would the government do a better job? without the profit motive?

the food system is heavily managed by the government. we are told to eat the wrong things, and we spend billions keeping the prices of unhealthy foods low. nice work government. the government is the problem, not the solution. it is by lessening their influence that we improve our health.

 

You're jumping to an extreme. I never said that healthcare should not make a profit and I apologize if O gave that impression. Otherwise what incentive do people have to become doctors, nurses, etc. and take care of sick people. The problem is when profit becomes the focus of healthcare and that's where we are today. Money should not enter into the equation of health. It should be a residual effect. I can deal with lawyers, engineers, etc, being greedy, but not my physician. My life or the life of my loved ones should never become a financial decision.

While there are some physicians, nutritionists, etc. who give people advice on how and what to eat, the focus of healthcare is not on prevention. It's on patching people up and covering flaws instead of curing and solving the root causes. Again, there's little incentive to invest the billions necessary to research cures for ailments like cancer because there's no immediate financial return. You can attempt to argue against this all you like, but you're simply wrong. Virtually every single health insurance plan in America supports that statement.

America does not have the best healthcare in the world. We have the most expensive. There's a huge difference there. Until you come to grips with that reality, this conversation is pointless.

You made a remark about rice and seaweed, so I assume you're referring to the Japanese healthcare system. Japanese people see their physician on average 3-4 more times a year than Americans. Costs are still far below what Americans pay. That has nothing to do with their diet and everything to do wwith price controls on routine medical tests which make them as affordable and routine and gettingh your car's oil changed.

What we put in our bodies certainly has an effect on people getting diabetes, heart condditions, etc. It's not the cure all for the nation's health. We can start a debate on the evils of HFCS is you like.

It's hard to take you seriously when you make such ridiculous remarks like the following:

Government is out of the way now (at least compared to what Obama would prefer) and it's the highest in the world.

In all honesty, Government should never need to run anything, but unfortunatly we have Selfish, stupid and greedy people who **** it up for the rest of us. As a result, us citizens get together every few years and elect people to speak for them and make decisions on their behalf. I know, it's a pretty ****ty way to get things done, electing people to represent you. Mob rule wouuld be so much more effective. That way we can all throw rocks and hit each other with heavy objects until the world works the way we want it to work, damn what the other billions of people think.

Why is it that no one ever brings up the net positive effect that illegal immigrant workers have on the American economy? It's as if we just ignore it and then it will go away. The service illegal immigrants provide far outweigh their financial burden. There is a strong case to be made against illegal immigration, but healthcare and social services is not part of it.

We'll just avoid the entire argument of how this country was founded by illegal imigrants...

Since when did decreasing competition ever result in reduced prices of anything?

 

Based on what? There's little argument of what type of work they perform and the fact they help make the rich even more waelthy. (SEE: WalMart & Tyson Chicken and how Clinton allowed them to receive a slap on the wrist for knowingly hiring illegal aliens and not collecting taxes)

The problem is far reaching and includes overcrowded schools, demands for Mexican history and Spanish in schools, lack of tax revenue as most work "under the table", emergency room visits (including births) paid for by tax dollars, use of highways without paying taxes or having a license, having many family members (spouse, children, parents) smuggled in and having a one income household for 8, 10, 12...people, government housing assistance, food stamps, and in some states even the right to vote as an illegal alien because asking for identification would be construed as racist.

I agree many 17-35 year old illegal aliens provide many benefits to the country but I think if you take a closer look, the negatives far outweigh the positives.

The notion of farmers and other professions not being able to survive without illegal aliens is overstated. They simply want cheap labor to increase profits and want the rest of us to carry the burden of sustaining them.

BTW...an overwhelming majority of Americans (including naturalized citizens and resident aliens) are in favor of tougher border control. Both parties including Bush, McCain, and Obama have resisted the voters' demands because both parties are heavily supported by business associates who profit from illegal aliens.

We allow more people to naturalize as citizens than all other countries combined. I don't consider that racist, aniti-immigrant, or prejudice.

Why can every nation in this world protect their national sovereignty but we're supposed to open our borders for everyone? That would destroy this country at even a quicker pace than this current Congress is on.

 

Fair enough

Why single out healthcare? Greed is everywhere.
Below you say you can deal with greedy lawyers but what happens when greedy lawyers sue for ridiculous amounts of money due to a mistake.
Edit: This effects health care also!

See above about lawyers.
I will say that no amount of money should be placed on a life but that aint what your going to get with Obamacare.

You are repeating yourself here.
It has already been discussed.
I don't think I'm wrong here but I never claimed to know everything about healthcare and every subject like Obama does.

Who has better healthcare than us?
Why do people from other countries always comes to the US for treatment instead of other countries?
I think you are mistaken just like some of the other stuff I've pointed out.

No, a was an attempt to be cute but failed!:insane::lol:
Referring to their diet.

I know nothing about the Japanese healthcare system but to say that diet has nothing to do with it is flat out wrong.
A better diet means a healthier population and less demand on a healthcare system., it has to play some sort of role.

Exercise also has to play a role in this country or the doctors and others wouldn't tell you to get more exercise.
That is another thing they tell you and told me along with changing your diet.

NO they aren't, free healthcare for illegals and regulations prevent a true market economy from taking place.
Just because I think its the highest quality healthcare in the world doesn't mean I don't think it can become improved.

Once again we have discussed this.
There is selfish, stupid and greedy people in government in both parties.
Right now the Liberals are being selfish and greedy by passing health care bill that no one wants.

Seems like a rant here, I don't really get it.
You mean mob rule like the thugs are doing in DC?

Well, now its hard to take you seriously, healthcare and social services is a part of it.
You are trying to totally throw out this part along with ones diet.:huh:
What Purple Tiger says, its more negative than positive.
Many Illegals send their money to Old Mexico anyway, a portion of it doesn't stay here.

Well you would probably lose that argument as well!:lol:
Seriously are you trying to justify illegals and your statements by that?:rolleye33:

Since when is deregulation such as lifting bans to where insurance can compete and sell insurance across state lines reducing competition?:dis:
That allows the consumer to buy insurance from anyone in the country versus just insurance in their state!

 

Keep in mind I'm not against healthcare reform but I'm totally against Obama care and probably most of the things he will try and do.
I have no problems with tweaking the current system if needed what I oppose is what is being done now.
I'm not for government run anything.
I acknowledge that something has to be done for those that can't have insurance due to health reasons.
I'm not so sure we already don't have the best of both worlds now that I have thought about it.
What I mean is the system we have had for years needs to be tweaked somewhat by keeping better tabs
on fraud, tort reform, deregulation across the states and reform medicare, medicaid.

I think our priorities are also screwed up though.
I think we need Imigration, tort, political, educational and scientific reform in this country, in that order!

 

Because that's what this thread is about? :hihi:

No, it's not. "Obamacare" isn't the answer either.

I don't think that Obama does either which is why he has not submitted a healthcare plan, but rather let the two legislative bodies form something on their own with a few suggestions thrown in by his camp.

People from other countries come to America because the technology is more advanced and the only ones that come are the extremely wealthy. I'd rank the Canada, Italy, Spain, Germany, France, Luxembourg
, UK and Switzerland higher than the US system and they're all cheaper IIRC. Japan is right there with the US and they're infinitely cheaper despite the average Japanese citizen visiting the doctor and undergoing tests far more than Americans. (The Japanese are completely obsessed with unnecessary tests.) These countries have higher or just as high life expectancies, lower costs and cover a higher percentage of the population than the US.

I'm sure they don't suffer from the same number of people with diabetes, but it doesn't explain how they're able to cover so many people, so often at such a disproportionately lower costs than we are for our people.

Well, it's argumentative to say that no one wants it first of all. Secondly, you'll never get any bill passed without compromise. Opposing parties and lobbyists will see to that.

Absolutely. See below and before you laugh at it, consider why if it's such a horrible thing for this country why our legislatures ignore the pleas of so many citizens who cry for immigration reform.

I completely misread what you said. Portable insurance is a great thing.

You really have done no research on the issue. I once held the same belief as you. The entire concept of illegal immigration" begins and ends with the word "illegal". Then I began to consider why people were crossing the border illegally to work at such ****ty jobs. The simple facts are that their own country simply cannot provide the same opportunity that this country can provide and a large reason is the corporate greed of this country and the inability of their own country to assist their workers like the US provides for the unemployed in America. Not sure if you're up on Mexico's Economic History...

What is boils down to is taking care of your family. Were I faced with the same situation as so many of these people, I have no doubts that I would do what is necessary to provide for the people I love, plain and simple.

Many illegal immigrants are paid under the table, but millions are paid just like you and I are paid and complete W-2 forms, just like you and I complete. The Social Security Administration estimates that illegal immigrants contribute roughly $6 - $7 billion of Social Security contributions in an account for W-2 tax forms that cannot be matched to a valid Social Security number. These numbers are attributable to undocumented workers who will never cash a Social Security check. Local sales taxes are paid by everyone, including illegal immigrants. That's worth tens of millions annually for state and local governments. States with large numbers of illegal immigrants also see lower rates of unemployment because small business owners are employing them. Small business owners who would not b e able to run their small business, pay taxes on their small business or purchase things without their business.

Eliminating illegal immigrants eliminates cheap labor. Increased costs in labor leads to increased product costs. You think inflation is a bitch now? Get rid of cheap labor and see how that impacts your wallet. Amnesty? You make them legal citizens, then they have the same rights to government programs and assistance that current poor citizens are entitled to.

So yeah, let's spend billions of dollars to lock down the US/Mexico border and make it air-tight and get rid of billions more in tax revenue while increasing the costs of labor and the products you buy. Is it any wonder why the government and business ignores the cries of xenophobic citizens who don't know jack **** about basic economics?

The one, single thing that I would like to see done for our healthcare system if they don't do anything else is to mimic the French Carte Vitale.



One swipe and your physician can see your medical history. Another swipe and he updates your medical history with your current visit. Another swipe and his bill has been sent off to the insurance company. The French do not have a medical billing industry like we do in America and physicians are not burdened with the costs of billing which lowers the costs of visits for patients, too. I'd like to see more physicians on salary like at the Mayo Clinic instead of being paid for each service they provide.