When did you as a Republican decide it was necessary that our president

Circular logic. "The eternal creator doesn't need a creator because he's eternal" is tautological. Your premise and your conclusion are both the same.

So, no.

In your closed tautology yes, it would be nonsense to conclude something outside the system's imposed restrictions. For example, in the number set {1,2,3} it would be nonsensical to think there's a 4 in there. But your number set doesn't necessarily reflect reality; it only reflects what you wished to include.

So, no, it's not nonsense to think that the universe is eternal and didn't need a creator. There's no reason to believe that the universe was "created", only that its present form was caused... and it could have been caused by itself as part of an eternal cycle.

 

Only if you put the cart before the horse.

Drop a can of paint onto the floor, it splatters into a pattern. The odds of that exact pattern were astronomical against. Yet there it is. It wasn't designed, it wasn't pre-planned, it wasn't fine-tuned. But if you say now, after the fact, how lovely the pattern is, and that that's the exact pattern that could in any way be aesthetically pleasing so it must have been fine-tuned, that's putting the cart before the horse.

 

I understand that, I know what the framework for it is. to what extent do you think a singularity that expands from nothing or not nothing or whatever, supports the idea of a creator?

I dunno about that, my claim was that I do not know the origin of the universe. doesn't seem very deranged.

ansi I say you are wrong here and the evidence does not support that. again I ask, how does any of the data imply a creator?

this is just made up!

 

Well jmg reading your post you have no answer as to why anything exist. The universe, man nothing. But it and we does exist. You have no answer no one does know for sure. This is why there is belief in a higher power in most every country and civilization. I am not a very religious guy and don't go to church. I was born a Catholic but have become disillusioned with that religion a long time ago. I especially am disappointed with the pope. He seems to be an activist pope. Believes in climate change etc. With that said I believe our existence can in no way be an accident. There is a god. It's become simple for me. God means good and doing right. The devil is a symbol of evil and doing wrong. Have no idea what God looks like nor the devil. I just have faith that there is a God. Comes down to faith.

 

correct. it doesn't matter either way

 

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you misunderstand. if im proposing that an eternal being created the universe, asking me who or what his creator is is a nonsensical question. Asking me what evidence is there for a an eternal being is okay.

Remember all those predictions of peak oil? Then along came those trillions of barrels outside the number set. And the new tech of course. I won't be bound by the modern dogma's definition of the 'system'. Thank you.

Nonsense. Data, logic and prevailing theory points to a created universe.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20140812-how-was-the-universe-created

Thanks to a series of calculations, observations from telescopes on Earth and probes in space, our best explanation is this.

Around 13.8 billion years ago, all the matter in the Universe emerged from a single, minute point, or singularity, in a violent burst. This expanded at an astonishingly high rate and temperature, doubling in size every 10-34 seconds, creating space as it rapidly inflated. Within a tiny fraction of a second gravity and all the other forces were formed. Energy changed into particles of matter and antimatter, which largely destroyed each other. But luckily for us some matter survived. Protons and neutrons started to form

"caused by itself" - can you elaborate on that? And eternal cycles theories always go down in flames for many reasons. First, all data show that the universe is headed for a cold death.

 

if you assume that a universe that can produce intelligent beings is nothing special. i do. if you see a stranger approach a bank fault , click in a bunch of numbers on the safe and get in the vault the first time you don't assume they were lucky, and because they got in we are even talking about it. You speculate that it was an inside job, not random.

 

They're not using the same connotation of "create" that you are. Words can have different meanings depending on the context. Their "created" simply means that something came into being; your "created" includes a designer. There is no logical reason to assume that this universe was designed by an intelligent creator.

 

But that's not an appropriate analogy. The real analogy is that after billions of years of punching numbers and billions of combinations the vault would inevitably open. That's how natural causes and evolution have worked.

 

it supports the idea that the Universe was created. The cause of the creation we can debate. There is too much data to really spend time debating whether it was created or not.

Well, we have a created Universe. We have a finely tuned Universe. I think it was intelligent design. Here's your buddy Dawkins, he's at heart a Diest just like me: