They are pretty much the same thing. Disbelieve means to refuse to believe in or reject. The word believe has a range of meanings from I suppose or think (like you're trying to use it) to having a firm and wholehearted conviction that something is true. In the context of theist and atheist, the latter meaning is more appropriate, but irrelevant. Disbelief is the absence of any belief, not just less belief.
There's that word believe again. As I remarked in a reply to Martin, believe has a range of meanings from I think to complete conviction. Theists and atheists have decided the question and have complete conviction in their decision. An agnostic has doubts about God's existence or nature. There could be a God, but he can't rule out the possibility there isn't. Also, he thinks that it is unknowable either way. An individual agnostic can lean to either side of this question; i.e. he can say he believes (or thinks) there is a god, but he has substantial doubts and is open to the possiblility that there isn't or vice versa. So it is improper to say that an agnostic has no belief in God; that is an atheist. Of course it's not a very useful definition if people at the extremes of this sort of continuous belief scale claim to be agnostic. For example Bertrand Russell when pressed would say that he was agnostic only because he couldn't prove that God didn't exist. He was an atheist for practical purposes. If proof of God was necessary, then everyone would be agnostic.
you are suprisingly good at stating how you are incorrect. most people who are as wrong as you are wouldnt state their position so well. a few of you just need to hit the encyclopedia and dictionary and brush up on word meanings.
Indiana Tiger logically waxes Rex and martin! Don't worry IT, martin is obsessed with getting in the last post. His non-responsive retort is a resignation. It's his bizarre way of conceeding your point.
the reason i didnt say much is that i have already demonstrated how you two do not understand. but i can do it again if i must. for any given question that you do not know the answer to, for example the existence of the spaghetti monster, you can make decide based on evidence whether to believe in it or not. on some topics you obviously cannot be certain. but that doesnt mean you will believe something merely because somebody said it out loud. there are plenty of things that you do not believe, but you cannot deny, because you have not, or cannot investigate it. now, you can make up definitions all you want and interpret them all sorts of ways. but the definition of atheis CLEARLY includes lack of belief as well as denial of god. as i showed earlier. "a·the·ist One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods." why do you think that word "or" is there if disbelieving and denying synonymous like you claim? the definition clearly states that mere disbelief is atheism. i dunno why you continue to argue. you cant just make up your own definition. do you believe you will get in a car wreck on your way home tonight? no, you do not. but that doesnt mean you are denying the possibility. you are not going to call your wife and tell her to meet you at the hospital, because you do not believe you will wreck. you have driven home many many times without wrecking, and you believe today will be no different. so if somebody asks you if if you blieve you will wreck, you say no. but if they ask you if you literally deny the possibility, of course you say no. it stuns me that you cant understand that.
let me put it this way, i hope you might understand. most people do not believe in zeus and poseidon. they can not prove these guys do not exist, so they cannot literally deny that zues exists. would you say that these people are agnostic in regards to zeus? of course not! you do not have to to deny something that you cannot possibly deny in order to be atheist. if you did, that would make atheism a totally irrational position. atheism is simply not believing in things there is no reason to believe in. the point is, you cannot make up your own definitions. you have to go with what the world agrees upon is the definition of a word and go with it. the first couple sentences of the wikipedia article on atheism : "Atheism, in its broadest sense, is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of god(s), thus contrasting with theism. This definition includes both those who assert that there are no gods and those who have no beliefs at all regarding the existence of gods." this is exacly what you are not understanding. can you rea the last sentence there? do you know what the word "both" means? a theism, a meaning without, and theism, meaning belief in god(s). 2nd grade stuff. without belief, not denying. the article goes on to specifically address this more: Atheism as lack of theism "Among modern atheists, the view that atheism means "without (or, polemically, "free of") theistic beliefs" has a great deal of currency. This very broad definition is justified by reference to etymology as well as consistent usage of the word by atheists, and has the polemical advantage of correcting the repressive tendency to define atheism out of existence." what i think is happening is that red is effectively atheist, but being agnostic sounds more moderate, so thats the position he takes, redefining words as he goes.
An erroneous conclusion based on unproved assumptions. My beliefs are clearly agnostic by all of the major defintions and my belief in a creator absolutely excludes me from being an atheist. It doesn't matter that I believe I can never know if a diety exists or what he expects from us if he does, but I do have a hunch that some creator is associated with creation. The Creator could be an entity or a phenomenon, or an old guy with a white beard, or a burning bush, or the flying spaghetti monster. We will never know. But if I believe it, then I can't be an atheist . . . by any definition. You correctly perceive that I am not religious, but that does not go hand-in-hand with being an atheist. I can believe in a Creator without having any use for beads and rattles, ritual dance, chanting of encantations, or the intercedence of a shaman.
From Webster's Third New International Dictionary: disbelief : the act of disbelieving : mental refusal to accept (as a statement or proposition) as true *listened to him with shocked disbelief* disbelieving: refusing to believe : withholding belief : UNBELIEVING –dis-be-liev-ing-ly adverb disbelieve: transitive verb : to hold not to be true or real : reject or withhold belief in *disbelieve his professions of sincerity* *disbelieve the existence of ghosts* intransitive verb : to withhold or reject belief — used with in *disbelieves in the sanctity of the status quo— W.C.Brownell* believe intransitive verb 1 a : to have a firm or wholehearted religious conviction or persuasion — usually used with in *believe in the Scriptures* and sometimes with on *and many believed on him there— Jn 10:42(Authorized Version)* b : to receive in faith or trust : ACCEPT *a story that divided the audience into those who believed and those who didn't* — often used with in *serfs incapable of believing in the sincerity of a master who desired to help them— E.J.Simmons* *because of its sincerity T this is the kind of play one would like to believe in— Punch* 2 obsolete : to give credence : TRUST — used with to *believe to your own virtues* 3 : to have a firm conviction as to the beneficial, genuine, or good quality of something — used with in *believe in physical culture* 4 : THINK, SUPPOSE *inclined to believe in accordance with her husband* transitive verb 1 a : to take (a statement or person making a statement) as true, valid, or honest : give credence to *believe the reports* b : to accept or receive as genuine, valid, or good *a bland assumption that all scientists T decide and publish what science believes— R.M.Weaver* 2 obsolete : to assume the existence of as true or valid *believe a God* 3 : to be of the opinion : SUPPOSE, SUSPECT *believe it will rain* *the dye is believed to be a complex acid*µ‹ The following two statements are not equivalent: I disbelieve in God. I believe there is no God. The first statement represents complete conviction; there is no doubt that there is no God. The second statement is a hedge at best because it could mean that you may only be inclined to believe that there is no God. The first is a statement by an atheist; the second is by an agnostic.
