Military What was done is being undone...Iraq

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by mancha, Jun 12, 2014.

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  1. uscvball

    uscvball Founding Member

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    In no particular order....

    Iraqi's are not very bright. We haven't been able to educate them over the last 10 years. It isn't going to change now. Iranians on the other hand are some smart mofuggers. Outside of the hostage ordeal, they haven't done anything to the US and they despise Wahabbi's and the growth of that movement in the region. Their geographic location makes them very nervous about what's happening in Iraq. They want and need our help. IMO, they will be working with us in this latest effort.

    We can blame Bush all day and yet we really should go back to failed intervention in the 70's. There wasn't more than a peep out of the Islamic world until the US got involved and started the Sunni/Shia struggle. By the time Bush went into Iraq there was already destabilization all over. We should have just gone ALL in and finished things in 6 months. Instead we dragged it out for 8 years and supported a constant stream of what amounted to local police action. They don't need a sheriff.

    During that time the Mahdi Militia has fomented into regions in several countries which implies money and solid planning. Iraqi soldiers cannot fight that or ISIS.

    Will maps be read? Certainly. For what purpose? Planning. Is it 300? Likely more than that. They are probably already there. 70 or so can read maps. A bulk will be needed for support. Berets wear unis so they have a function in terms of advising the Iraqis. The other non-uniformed groups, likely including SAD operators are there to win the hearts and minds of locals. How? By removing ISIS leaders with the kind of weaponry that Iraqis don't have and we wouldn't give. They have become HVTs. There is nothing more effective or fast at stopping the current action than to strategically remove the leadership where they sleep. Map readers...nice cover story and it is true to a point but that's not what we are doing.
     
    uscvball, Jun 21, 2014
    #121
  2. LaSalleAve

    LaSalleAve when in doubt, mumble

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    So by that account Bush is even a bigger fool for having gone in there. These people will always do this. They are animals that can't help but tear each other apart. It was folly to think that we would have anything other than a negative impact on that area of the world. Now we are hated more than ever, and billions upon billions of dollars, and thousands of lives were wasted.

    Fuck em. Let em tear each other to shreds.
     
    LaSalleAve, Jun 21, 2014
    #122
  3. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Just a few comments . . .

    There are geniuses and dunces in any statistically valid group. It is no different with Iraq and Iran. The big difference is that Iraq has known nothing but strongman rule and few people tell the strongman that he has no clothes. Iran, since the elimination of the Shah and despite the ascendance of the Ayatolahs, has a representative government in which many voices are heard. It tends to moderate their politics. It is why Ahmanutjob was so polarizing to them with his inflammatory rhetoric which was almost entirely for domestic consumption.

    Amiga, the Shia and Sunni have been at each other throats for 1,400 years. The US did not start this.

    There was Shia discontent, but the country was quite stable and lawful with no sectarian militias. Saddam ruled with an iron fist.

    I don't know what you imagine, but we WERE all in. We had multiple divisions on the ground and the bulk of our deployable airpower in theater. Four countries were involved. You don't take down and occupy a country with a police action. It was a full-blown invasion and the military action against the Iraq army was over in three months when Saddamn was toppled and the Iraqi military disbanded. The rest of that war was a military occupation of a hostile country. Occupations like that are never winnable. You either stay forever or you leave when your goals have been met. Once Saddam was captured and the imaginary WMD's not found, we should have packed up and left.

    Iraqi soldiers fought Iran for ten years and had the best of it. Iraqi soldiers kept down all militias and kept out foreign militants successfully for 40 years of Baathist rule. They are not inherently cowardly. They just collapsed under poor leadership in Western Iraq against ISIS, which hasn't won the war yet. We have to take some blame for poor Iraqi leadership when we stripped the Iraqi army of anyone associated with the Baath party, which happened to be almost all of the experienced and well-trained Iraqi officer corps. Malaki purged more Sunni officers and the entire military is having to relearn lessons they learned in the Iran and Kuwait Wars.

    Planning, logistics, intelligence, operations, and a whole lot more.

    Your imagination is vivid. There is no evidence for any of this. Americans do not want to fight in Iraq any more. "Winning the hearts and minds" of the people is a ship that has sailed long ago. It is a civil war in which both sides hate us. It ain't our fight. We are essentially going to let them kill each other just like we let ISIS fight Hezbollah in Syria. Whoever "wins" is going to be greatly depleted and have bigger worries than attacking the United States. Or Israel for that matter.

    What we need to be doing is sending more support to our vital allies in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait who will soon be swamped with Iraqi refugees. We may even support the Iranians taking more refugees to relieve Jordan, already swamped with new Syrian refugees and Palestinians who have been living in refugee camps for 50 years.
     
    red55, Jun 21, 2014
    #123
  4. uscvball

    uscvball Founding Member

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    A generalization that applies globally. Specifically, Iranians are light years ahead. That comes directly from someone who worked in the region.

    I'm talking about modern day. Islam was never an issue. The US upset the balance with the Shah and meddling in what was going on.

    As most dictators do including Bashar. I'm talking about the region.

    Nonsense. We could have wrapped it up in 6 months. Bush didn't want to.

    Please explain the Mahdi Militia and their success in having multiple strongholds across several countries.

    Yes, for America's SO, not for Iraqis. I will ask again, exactly what do you think Iraqi military can or will do with the level of intelligence we can provide? They are not capable of doing the kind of damage necessary. Baghdad is getting ready to fall.

    It ain't vivid. It's real and common sense if you think about what the government just tried to sell you. Why on God's green earth would the US tell the world that we are about to send 300 warriors over there to read maps? That is not a strategy other than purposeful misinformation. Americans don't know everything that is done in their name. Winning hearts and minds was meant as theoretical....ISIS leaders have to be removed. That makes both Iraqi citizens and Iranians happy. Iran does not hate the US. The problem is they like Russia at the moment, too.

    How many news articles are there about SAD operators?

    Screw that. Let the Saudi Royals pay for it. They may be the most powerful and certainly wealthy people over there. Let them show good will by doing the right thing.
     
    uscvball, Jun 21, 2014
    #124
  5. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    In other words, nobody I've ever heard of. Well everybody has an opinion. But your notion that the Iraqis don't have the IQ of Iranians is unsupportable. Iran is more effective. The US is more effective than Canada, but it doesn't mean Canadians have low IQ.

    Islamic sectarian conflict has always been a major issue. Americans just never paid attention to it until recently.

    Well, who told you this one? I think you are misinformed.

    What success? They stopped fighting the coalition around 2006 after multiple failures and since then have fallen out with Malaki who moved against them and they had to run to Iran and disbanded in 2008. What exactly has the Mahdi militia accomplished in your mind?

    Watch and learn. ISIS is not some kind of all-powerful army. They have no armor, no heavy artillery, pathetic logistics, and no airpower. Their reach is limited and they may have already overreached. This has severely impacted their offensive in Syria which is good news for the moderate Syrian rebels.

    You are sooooo misinformed. But very original. Why do you imagine that the government is lying about everything?

    We have covert operators in every country in the world.

    The Saudis are already paying $millions for support of both countries.
     
    red55, Jun 21, 2014
    #125
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  6. Bengal B

    Bengal B Founding Member

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    What should have been done from the start with The 1st Gulf War was to take over the oil fields and build a fence around them. Then declare the whole area as the new American state of Iraqakansas
    or Middle East Texas and let the stupid bastards ruin the rest of their country however they wanted to. They hate not only Christians and Jews but it is fatal to be the "wrong kind of Muslim."
     
    Bengal B, Jun 21, 2014
    #126
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  7. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    It's far cheaper to just buy the oil.
     
    red55, Jun 21, 2014
    #127
  8. Bengal B

    Bengal B Founding Member

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    With an attitude like that you must be from Iranifornia or Arabiachusetts
     
    Bengal B, Jun 21, 2014
    #128
  9. LSUpride123

    LSUpride123 PureBlood

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    Sure, why not take over the world?
     
    LSUpride123, Jun 21, 2014
    #129
  10. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    I'm from Pragmatica, you are from Whackostan.
     
    red55, Jun 22, 2014
    #130
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