the baby is the same after birth as it was before birth. a baby 5 minutes before birth is not a "group of cells" but a baby completely capable of life outside the womb. doctors arent creating humans when they pull babies out of women.
My comment was that birth is the only "non-arbitrary" moment in the process. It is the point where an animate human is finally established and independent of a host body. Before this point there is great disagreement, after it there is none.
A fetus in the first trimester reseponds to stimuli. How is that inanimate? Your own word use defies your logic. You say that a fetus cannnot survive independet of its mother, but something that is not alive has no need to survive since it isn't living.
i dont really care how much disagreement there is or isnt, birth is still a pretty arbitrary time to decide a human life exists. the human life isnt defined by medical independence. i think the rational way to define a new life is when cells that are genetically unique exist. the fetus is inside the mother, but it isnt the same as the mother, it has its own genetic material, its own dna, its own characteristics.
Your liver, your brain, and most other organs in your body respond to stimuli as well. I say a fetus cannot survive as a human being independent of his mother. Not every entity that is living constitutes a sentient human being. Tumors live within us but they are not humans. Tapeworms live within us, but they are not humans. Apple trees live but they are not humans either. One can remove a healthy, living kidney from a woman and it will not live, but that is not murder. Neither is it so with a 1st trimester fetus. But let a fetus be born and then a resulting human death can become murder.
in this debate, the pro-lifers are so much more honest than the pro-choicers. and honesty counts in my book. i would be fine with abortions being banned, because i dont care either way, and i would be pleased if the pro-choice crowd gets burned for being a bunch of liars. it is clear that killing a fetus is killing a little tiny human being, and if you value human life you should oppose it. there are no ways around this. you can dance oround this "life begins at birth" bs all you want, and play as many word games as you think necessary, but at its base, the opinion of the average pro-choice person is based on lies. this legal "compromise" is murder.
i agree its not really debatable its just whether you try to come off not sounding like a murderer because you agree with abortion. its funny how people's minds work.
since both sides are dummies for different reasons (pro-lifers for thinking god made life sacred and pro-choicers for being liars) i will side with the pro-lifers, because i prefer morons to liars. even the pro-choice name is dihonest and misleading. they are pro-death(like me). the idea that a life begins at birth is completely absurd. any failure to admit that abortion is anything other than the killing of defenseless children is dishonest. tirk is absolutely correct. people dont wanna accept that they condone murder, but they do. also any claim that before whatever trimester or month is ok, but afterwards isnt, the premise there is dishonest too, that we didnt have a life before whatever date, but we did after? please negro, i dont think so. this actually reminds me of this thing i went to last week called "bodies, the exhibition". you peeps may have heard of it, it is a touring museum thing. it is a bunch of dead chinamen torn apart so you can check out all their parts. they have like skinned dead chinese guys in poses, like throwing a football, and you look at their muscles and wang and brains and whatnot. it is all real dead people, it was pretty cool. anyways, they had dead baby cadavers from around a couple days old through almost born. they even had a woman cadaver with a baby inside it and displayed. it is all preserved and sort rubberized. it was weird. the whole thing is sort of controversial because the dead guys are all chinese dudes and people are alleging that they were from chinese prisons and abused and now we are using for a medical info thing against their will. that story had no point. you cant win em all.
