Waterboarding = Torture ??

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by Rex_B, Dec 13, 2007.

  1. LsuCraig

    LsuCraig Founding Member

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    BAM! Couldn't have said any of this better. I commend you sir.
     
  2. LsuCraig

    LsuCraig Founding Member

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    Absolutely. Like others said, the US government has put lives (soldiers) in harms way for 230 years to justify an end....victory. You think Eisenhower thought that no men would lose their lives storming Normandy Beach? Sorry, Rangers storming Normandy beach? Of course. And the ends of victory justified the means.

    No doubt those were all tough decisions when it comes to US servicemen.......but for me and obviously half our country, I would never lose one wink of sleep knowing agents were waterboarding our enemies. Couldn't care less. I care about this country and our countrymen. Not some f'en terrorist who would cut your throat for fun.

    But for your kind, it's better if you don't know what our country does for you to remain free. Now go back to watching your soaps.......
     
  3. Rex_B

    Rex_B Geaux Time

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    You guys are idiots if you think war = freedom.
     
  4. CajunlostinCali

    CajunlostinCali Booger Eatin Moron

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    War is what got you your freedom. The ability to stay an invasion maintains that freedom.

    Freedom isnt free nor is it dum.

    Back in the day they said the British are coming, well...
     
  5. Rex_B

    Rex_B Geaux Time

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    I'm less free today than I was 6 years ago and do I feel any safer... NOPE
     
  6. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Well, it's more a product of 8 Congresses, although the executive does have a say. Ultimately the money provided by Congress determines the force structure.

    I tend to agree with you that the force has become too small for a superpower. Iraq has proved that the army must be larger to have staying power and from time to time we will have to have staying power, not just striking power. We will still need heavy infantry divisions for that.

    The Air Force is fighting with a small force of new, very expensive and difficult to replace stealth jets. They can defeat anything in the air, but in a protracted struggle, attrition will leave us without enough jets to maintain air supremacy. We also need a bunch of cheaper jets for work against third-world air forces. Jets that can be built quickly in wartime.

    The navy was cut badly because the old Soviet Navy is now largely rusting at anchor. Of course, Putin has the Russian Mediterranean fleet patrolling again and the Chinese are building a blue-water navey as quickly as they can including nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers. The navy has fewer ships but the ocean has gotten no smaller and control of it is vital to us. We had a 3,000-ship navy at the height of the Cold War. Reagan had a 600-ship navy in the 80's. We now have a 280 ship navy trying to control the same seaspace.

    The trillion dollars that is being wasted in Iraq could have bought us an awful lot of lasting military hardware and troops.
     
  7. LsuCraig

    LsuCraig Founding Member

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    Ignore it or not, the only real, lasting peace in the history of the planet has come through war. Not the UN or some treaty.
     
  8. LsuCraig

    LsuCraig Founding Member

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    Less free? Oh yeah, that Patriot Act has really affected you and your life.
     
  9. Bengal Buddy

    Bengal Buddy Founding Member

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    It is one of the first principles of ethics that the end does not justify the means. If you deny that you open up a pandora's box. War has always been considered a moral evil - even a justified war - because of the brutality. War is always the results of a failure of diplomacy. Sometimes it is necessary and justified - as WW II was - but that fact does not make it morally good. There is another principle called the Double Font Principle of Morality. It holds that when you are faced with two evils, you must choose the lesser. In the case of WW II allowing Hitler and the Japanese to run loose in the world was a greater evil than using military might to stop them, even if in the process of using that might we had to send waves of soldiers into the muzzles of machineguns on the beaches of Normandy.

    I never said anything about my being concerned about the longterm psychological effects on torture on terrorists. I am more concerned about how it changes us. I believe we are better than they are in our concern for the dignity of every human being regardless of what he has done. Whatever techniques we use must respect that dignity, and our failure to do that only reflects negatively on us and shows disrespect to our own dignity. We cannot use the same techniques as the terrorists without becoming like them.

    Torture involves much more than terrorists being scared of American troops. You accuse me of being naive? I hope they are scrared of them for what they can do to them on the battlefield. But once they are in custody there are principles that must be followed. Come to think of it, even on the battlefield there are rules of engagement that must be followed. They are called the Laws of International Armed Conflict (LIAC) and they represent the opinion of all civilized nations that even in time of war we have to take what steps we can to limit the destruction inherent in war. Even in the most inhuman of times, we all have to strive to maintain our humanity. Perhaps that is the most important victory.
     
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  10. LsuCraig

    LsuCraig Founding Member

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    You can't base the realities of the world on some college philosophy book.

    It seems I may be in the minority on this nowadays......but I start from the basic premise that the US is right on great questions of our time like freedom vs. tyranny. And I think we have as Americans have a responsibility to spread freedom, in whatever form that may come. Self-determination for everyone. We secure our own freedom and propserity the more that people around the world are free themselves.

    Now we shouldn't go and take over every despotic nation on earth. But as opportunities afford themselves, we should let the natural urge of man take over....and that urge is to be free. We should assist in anyw ay that helps us. By helping them we are helping us.

    And, I don't base my views on any "feelings" of anything. I don't base my feelings on "how I want to be treated." I don't care about what other countries think of the US. If the best position for our country is to be in is to be feared....then so be it. To keep our country free and the spread of democracy, we should do whatever is necessary to survive. If that means waterboarding to get information....then so be it. If average Americans can't take that we waterboard, then don't let pictures or discussion of it get out to the public. I didn't have one feeling about the prison scandel in Iraq.....other than who allows a GD camera in there to take pictures?

    People who have been raised in their cocoons of safety can't handle what our country does to exist. So be it....then don't tell them. But don't base the harsh realities of the world on some philosophy book. Ethics don't help when your on Iwo Jima......
     

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