I assume you're talking about me, and while I'm not a regular poster on this forum, I visit it everyday and I mostly lurk. I'm not sure what I have to prove as far as reputation goes, but I think I conduct myself fairly. I try to express my thoughts clearly and concisely, and I never engage in anything but a debate. If he's able to make comments about me being dishonest, and because I don't have "reputation" I should sit back and take it, then I'm not sure this is the place for me, which would sadden me greatly.

The recruiting forum here is awesome, bhelm is a true gift when it comes to wanting to know what's going on along with many, many others.

You know if 80% of my passes were quick slants and bubble screens i would hope that my completion percentage was around 65%. Jordan Jefferson's completion percentage last season was 61.9% i guess everyone will be talking about his greatness in 09 in a few years also.

Russell was good, he was not great at LSU by any means. I remember us barely getting out of Death Valley alive against a 1-8 Ole Miss team. Yes he was inconsistent. You don't get the entire story when you look at the numbers.

He was a winner at LSU, he was a good SEC quarterback, not great.

I did give you rep on one of your earlier posts, I respect your ability to back up your points in a civil manner, and though we disagree, I can see a lot of truth in what you said.

But in this instance I was referring to The Dude, who I feel summed up my argument nicely. Welcome to the board though, I was a lurker for years myself and only lately have felt the need to interject when I see fit, which seems to be a lot. It's good to have such banter in the off season, glad it didn't get *too* heated.

You didn't say this, no, but it has been said before. I can't speak for The Dude, but I think that part of his post was addressing the fanbase as a whole, because a great percentage of them harbor this misguided notion. Here's an example from this thread, from TF's own Nostradamus himself:

Yet he holds the school record for longest yards-per-completion in a single game? And averaged nearly 3 yards more per pass than Flynn? He did accumulate a lot of yards on slants and bubble screens, yes. Nobody was better at fitting the slants into tight space. But that wasn't all he was doing, or else is YPA wouldn't be so high. I seem to remember a lot of 30 yard ropes down the field, skinny posts, deep ins, comebacks, etc. To write him off as a Rich Gannon or Bruce Gradkowski type QB would be the opposite of true.

Here are Russell's completion %'s by game his Jr. year, some of these are absolutely remarkable. I'll include the yardage totals too so you can see that he wasn't just dinking and dunking it.

ULL- 13-17 (76 pct.), 253 yards (14.88 ypa)
ARI- 13-20 (65 pct.), 196 yards (9.80 ypa)
AU- 20-35 (57 pct.), 269 yards (7.6 ypa)
TUL- 17-23 (74 pct.), 198 yards (8.6 ypa)
MSU- 18-20 (90 pct.), 330 yards (16.5 ypa)
UF- 24-41 (58 pct.), 228 yards (5.5 ypa)
UK- 15-18 (83 pct.), 226 yards (12.5 ypa)
FSU- 15-19 (79 pct.), 210 yards (11.1 ypa)
TEN- 24-36 (67 pct.), 247 yards (6.8 ypa)
ALA- 18-21 (85 pct.), 207 yards (9.8 ypa)
MIS- 20-36 (55 pct.), 223 yards (6.2 ypa)
ARK- 14-22 (63 pct.), 210 yards (9.5 ypa)
ND- 21-34 (62 pct.), 332 yards (9.7 ypa)

Other than the Florida game, which was against the #1 defense in arguably the most hostile venue (other than Tiger Stadium of course) in all of college football, to a team that won the national championship that year, he put up above-average to stellar numbers in both completions and YPA in every game. Sure, there are some other blights on there, but overall that body of work more than defuses your argument that he was only throwing short passes.

I mean look at that Mississippi State stat line again, it's just unreal. You don't throw for 330 yards off of only bubble screens and slants. The Alabama game was tremendous as well.

Now, remember that we had very little running game to speak of for most of that year (2 backs with 100 yard games, against Tulane and ND) and a very difficult schedule. What reason is there to believe A. We'd have been better off with Flynn, or B. Russell wouldn't have done even better had he returned for his last year?

And here is my biggest problem with this debate, more arm chair psychology from people who have never met or talked to JaMarcus (I haven't either, but I'll give him some benefit of the doubt when it comes to things about him that I know nothing about).

You are telling me, based on no empirical evidence whatsoever, that the team trusted Flynn more and that you don't THINK that Russell had the ability to be humble?

Ok, sure, he's not a gym rat, never has been and never will be. Doesn't mean he didn't care about the team or that the team didn't care about him. He's been a colossal disappointment in the NFL, but that gives nobody the right to project some sort of character flaws on him that never manifested themselves while at LSU.

Let's keep the argument only about football, and not this uninformed armchair psychology. Russell was a great QB at LSU, because every statistical measure says so. QBs are judged by wins and losses first, and passing stats 2nd. He Aced both categories.

If "humble" was all you needed to be a great QB, let's bring Andrew Hatch back for another run. Who's with me?

I'm not saying he couldn't throw the ball down the field, because he could, there is no denying that the guy could throw the ball and was accurate over the middle and deep. He threw really good in routes also, he and Bowe made a living off of that. Craig Davis was more of the quick slant guy, Early was the WR inside screen and bubbles. I think he was a good quarterback at LSU, i think Flynn was a good quarterback at LSU, i wouldn't call either of them great though. He did have alot of weapons, he did throw alot of short passes, and i think where the argument is coming in is how he was completely worthless in 3 games against Auburn, He was worthless in the SEC Championship Game, worthless against Florida in 06, but who wasn't that game. He never won a SEC title at LSU and because of that, i cannot say he was great.

In 3 Games vs. Auburn
2004 - 8-19-1 for 123 yards completion pct of 42.1 with 42 of the 123 yards coming off of 1 play. 0 touchdowns. 2 sacks and efficiency of 85.96 ouch!!
2005 - 16-33-0 for 190 yards completion pct of 48.5 1 touchdown and a 106.8 efficiency.
2006 - 20-35 269 yards 57 completion pct. 0 touchdowns 1 sack. He had better numbers in this game but he threw the ball 35 times.

Now maybe Auburn just had his number, i don't know. But i still cannot say he was Great. Good yes, Great no.

That's all pretty reasonable. Interesting how Auburn seemed to give him problems. I do remember that the 04 game was what, like his 3rd game ever? I was at that one, had great seats by the end zone and had a great view of Bowe's TD catch on our first drive. Marcus Randall started that game and was playing well, then Saban decided to play musical QBs and jerked them both in and of the game arbitrarily. Neither could get into a rhythm from there.

On our final drive though, Russell did nearly lead us into field goal range in about 4-5 plays. What would've been a first down to Early at around the 30 bounced off his hands into a LB's to seal our fate. Had Early held on, we have an attempt at a game-winning field goal and Auburn never goes undefeated.

That was a bad performance, but he was a redshirt freshman in his first ever road game who wasn't playing full time. He still nearly brought us the win.

I can't really remember much about the 05 game even though I was there, other than Duval missing all of those field goals.

And we've talked about the 06 debacle enough for two lifetimes.

You did so in this full quote. Attribute it to whatever you like. I didn't misquote you.

You didn't infer it. You said it.

Then you should have stuck with this instead of telling me that I am making up your statements. But you didn't.

Hostile? :rofl:

You should get a thicker skin or quit posting. Posts will be challenged on a message board. Yours will not be excluded.

Get a life. I attacked your position, not you.

Well I'm crushed Brian. Truly I am. Like I said before, grow a thicker skin or go back to lurking. Insulting me personally will not get you a pass when I disagree with you.

No, not again. Not before, and not now. This statement was leveled at "many here" in regards to Flynn winning a second championship. The correlation is that it did turn into a Flynn vs Russell debate. One that you took up on many levels, and several here took up on the mythical championship level. Go read it again. I was quite clear.

Right back at ya scooter. :thumb:

I think it's hard to try and speculate how a team would do by plugging a guy from one season into the next. Flynn playing in 2006 maybe helps us win it all, or maybe he does really poorly and gets yanked for Russell and he transfers. It's impossible to predict so I don't waste much time considering it.

My only contention in the thread is that I do not consider JaMarcus a great quarterback, but time and with it the inevitable less biased perspective may ultimately sway me to conclude him as very much that. Don't know the answer to that one, but for right now he and Flynn and both really quality LSU quarterbacks for very different reasons.

Russell's accomplishments on the field and his outstanding won-loss record clearly insert him into the upper echelon of quarterbacks to ever play here. I also think what Flynn did in his brief career on the field at LSU will also have him remembered for his perseverance and his ability to get us to and win a championship.

Ultimately, though, Rohan Davey might well have been a better collegiate quarterback than either. Kid could really sling it, and to think what he could have done with a supporting cast that Matt and JaMarcus had.. Josh Reed was pretty awesome. I also think Matt Mauck really transformed himself from a guy who helped us win a SECCG via almost exclusively his legs to doing it through the air. He may be my favorite ever.

Was a fun debate though. :thumb:

:rofl:

really! i didnt read the whole thread so i didnt catch that till your quote. nice find!:hihi:

So much for light reading in the morning at work.......