Obama The Iran Deal We Should Have Done

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by Bengal B, Jul 17, 2015.

  1. Bengal B

    Bengal B Founding Member

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    I said the same thing as @el005639 but msnbc killed the story
     
  2. Winston1

    Winston1 Founding Member

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    The treaty is a statement of BHO's belief in the ability to craft a moderate state in Persia. In this he isn't much different from those who supported the shah and follows a long tradition in dealing with Persia and the Persians. It a gamble on the scale of W's invasion of Iraq. Both tried/ are trying to make substantive change in a region. @red55 is correct the Persians aren't the fanatics the Arab radicals are. In that they are significantly more dangerous. They are playing a long game for supremacy in the ME, defeat of Israel and the Sauds are their first priorities. Eliminating western primarily US influence follows.
    The question is how does this treaty further their goals? How dangerous is it for the U.S. Israel and the west? What will the reaction of the Saudis and rest of the Sunni countries? They are the first line of mortal enemies who will be affected by the consequences of the treaty.
    I'm not worried they will start lobbing bombs at Israel or the Sauds or us. The more dangerous consequence is what they will do with the $150 BN they will get, with the resumption of arms trade , with the oil income they will start receiving? They are supporting Assad, Hezbollah and other Sheite groups fighting in the Middle East. They are doing the long term work of undermining the Saudis, wearing Israel down ( morally and Physically) and opposing our efforts everywhere in the ME except where it suits their interests.
    The side agreements are the very scary parts of these treaties (it's not just one). I'm afraid that the president and SOS Kerry wanted this agreement so badly they have taken great risks that may very well turn out very badly for the U.S., Israel and the west.
    There is much much more to determining whether the treaty is wise or worthwhile than the status of the Persian nuclear program. As question to be answered is what does this do to our standing with other countries? In my opinion and many others I've read this is as naively entered into. He is putting faith in a group of people who have an agenda that doesn't align with his and who have work methodically for their goal since 1979. I hope he is right because if he is wrong much fuel has been poured on the fire that is the Middle East and the world will suffer for it.
     
  3. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Well that is exactly what the Christians and Jews think, too! Don't fall for the silly-ass third-world staged chanting, it's for internal consumption. Iranians are not stupid, just obstinate, nationalistic, and influenced by clergy. The chanting just imprints them as a third-world pretender to great power status.

    Don't confuse them with Sunni Arab jihadists, they are a very different kind of radical. These are Shiite Persians and they are smarter, richer, and occupy better geography. They have an ancient tradition going back to the dawn of civilization. They are very proud of it . Attacking the United States gains them absolutely nothing but grief. Hell, attacking Israel, Russia, or Pakistan is equally suicidal. They are not going to do it. They just want to be able to deter Israel.
     
  4. Winston1

    Winston1 Founding Member

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    Almost Red. They do have a long tradition and see them as inheritors of Cyrus and Darius. They are seeking the elimination of the Sunni leaders root and branch. The house of Saud and their relations are in their bullseye. Frankly I can see them using the bomb to try to intimidate the Saudis. The Israelis come a close second and yet they seek nuclear deterrence. Their prime problem with us is we are too involved in their region. They want us out out out and will do anything they think will get us out.
    The question is does the treaty give them the tools to get closer to their goals? Rather than the nuclear question we should look more closely at the $150bn + they will get, the resumption of arms purchases they can make. Does this treaty further our goals in the region? Only if you want a war between Shia and Sunni or a Persian hegemony and a weakened west.
     
  5. el005639

    el005639 Founding Member

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    if you met a stranger on the street and they told you "wait here I'm going to get my gun and shoot you" would you believe they were "posturing" or would you take them serious. I'm going to bet you would take them serious and take appropriate action. so why would you discount people who have shown they have the will to do exactly what they say?
    and I don't buy your statement that they are Shia and the Sunni are the nut cases. both sides of that disagreement are full of nut jobs.
    however I do agree with you that our options were limited, but our shit head in Chief really lowered the bar of what is success with this agreement.
     
    gyver and Bengal B like this.
  6. LaSalleAve

    LaSalleAve when in doubt, mumble

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    Iran actually has a lot of citizens who are Westernized, but I don't think there should be a deal for the simple fact that Ayatollah Khamenei endorses it. Fuck that dude.
     
  7. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    I'm quite sure that this is the dream of many of them. But it is not realistic and most of them realize this. It won't stop them from lobbying, of course, but the realist among them understand full what their hotel engagement of the United States has cost them since 1979. They went from the most prosperous and modern muslim country to economic collapse and social unrest. International relations have plummeted. They have no allies at all. They have no hope and no chance of defeating the United States and they know it. They can't even keep us out of the region. They saw us protect Kuwaiti tankers from Iranian threats and saw us defend and recover Kuwait from Iraqi conquest. They recently watched us take down and occupy countries on either side of them for daring to provide America. It made a deep impression.

    How are they going to defeat Israel? They can't. How are they going to defeat Saudi Arabia, they can't as long as they are our allies. Iran couldn't even defeat Saddam's Iraq in a 10-year war. They lost a million men and demonstrated just how incompetent their military is. The Iranian people have no taste for more war. They have a taste for property. A government that continues to prevent their property and may get them into an other unwinnable war will not have a long life. There is another revolution coming in Iran and unlike the last one, we are maneuvering to be favorable to the winning side of the next one.

    It's a good question. It furthers their goals by getting some relief from the crippling sanctions that have their population very unhappy and frustrated. They need this badly, which is why we used it to twist their arms. They do not like being a pariah state and want international acceptance. They have a long way to go, but this is a start for them. perhaps they will like the sanctions relief so much that they will seek to have the rest of them removed by ending their support for Palestinian terrorists and vowing never again to kill and hold diplomats hostage.

    Of course, but so do we and every other power in the region. Everybody is out to protect they interests. They will continue to support Assad, Hezbollah, and Hamas as they always have, but what has it gotten them except a drain on their finances. Hezbollah and Hamas will never defeat Israel and they are living in squalor in Gaza and the wasteland that is south Lebanon. Syria is a disaster that will not last much longer. They have a population that badly desires the sanctions lifted so that they can return to a more normal modern existence and have the things that modern people desire. I think Iran will be forced to see that this money goes to their own people. There is must simmering unrest there and they can buy internal happiness with this money. It's their money, it has just been frozen in overseas accounts.

    What side agreements and why do you fear them?

    I don't see how. They were about to have a bomb, which is gasoline for sure. This deal prevents that. I don't see how it hurts our relations with the rest of the world either. The UN, Europe and even Russia and China are with us on this. Consider that for a moment. Everybody has an interest in seeing Iran become less inflammatory and more pragmatic. The rest of the middle east has seen us invade and occupy three muslim countries and conduct air strikes and special forces operations in five others. That action has caused many individuals to join the fight against us. we don't really have to impress on anybody the fact that we can have our way militarily if we feel it is required. Now they have seen that we can also negotiate agreements with hostile muslim countries. This gives them hope that differences with us can be resolved short of death and destruction. Mostly theirs.
     
  8. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    How well has that worked for them? Jagger said, "You cain't always get what you want." Don't confuse their rhetoric with their reality. They have hardliners to appease and middle easterners have serious issues with saving face. Their mouths have greater reach than their capabilities.
     
  9. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    What will? What have they actually done? Have they caused the downfall of Israel? Nope. Did they defeat Iraq? Nope. Did they defend Syria? Nope. Have they attacked us in any way? Nope. Not even after we shot down one of their civilian airliners, sanctioned them, and backed Iraq in the Iran/Iraq War.

    They can't win a fight by talking about it. They talk a mean fight but they lose every battle they have ever been in for centuries. They haven't won a war since they repelled Uzbek invaders in 1510. It's a major reason that they talk so tough . . . they doubt themselves with very good reason.
     
  10. el005639

    el005639 Founding Member

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    you just don't get. their definition of winning is not the same as ours. it doesn't matter what happens here on earth it only matters that they can reach their version of heaven.
    reaching heaven for them is simply becoming a martyr. it would not matter that "iran" is laid waist.
     

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