The Australian's analysis; what Iraq is really about

bayareatiger · Nov 29, 2004

Jetstorm said:

To address your question Martin:

Al-Qaida's goal has always been a united Islamic Caliphate with radical Wahabbist/Taliban style Islamic law as the philosophy and government and Wahabbist spiritual leaders in charge. Is that a realistic goal? I'm not sure exactly. As the article stated, the reaction of the "Islamic street" has not been nearly what Al-Qaida had hoped for. However, radical Islamist sentiment is there, and if you walk the streets of any large city in the Islamic world, even in more progressive, pro-American countries like Kuwait, Iraq, and Turkey, you are going to hear a lot of, "Well, I disagree with violence and fundamentalism, but that Osama Bin Laden, a lot of what he says is the truth." I just can't get a feel for how powerful the religious fundamentalism resonance is.

I honestly believe that the average Muhammed the Muslim or Ahab the Arab, is not, at heart, a bad person. He just wants to live his life, make a little money, live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood, with no violence or shooting or a mean govt. with a mean secret-police always comin' around making trouble, and be able to send his kids to good schools, where they get good education, and they go on to live a better life than what he had. Just like us. Where Muhammed and his fellow Arabs and Muslims get led astray is that they too often give in to their own prejudices and fears and backward ways, kinda like the way white Southerners were prior to the 1950s. White Southerners had to be prodded by the federal govt. to get past their obsession with superiority to the "colored people" for them to prosper and for our region to move forward into the modern era. In the same way, Muhammed and his fellow Muslims need an outside impetus to do the following things to live in peace and prosperity:

-GET OVER THE FREAKIN' JEWS HAVIN' A FREAKIN' COUNTRY! Israel is theirs. DEAL. WITH. IT.

-Non-Muslims are people too, and they have rights too. Are you so afraid that your belief system will collapse under scrutiny or due to comparison that you cannot even tolerate the existance of other religions in your midst? You need to be broken of that real quickly, or you are gonna get left behind in the global economy and nobody is gonna want to live in your country.

-Women are people too, and they have rights too. Female genital mutilation, beating women, and treating them as nothing more than cattle is a bad thing. You need to get over that as well, Muhammed.

Basically, Muhammed the Muslim has to be convinced that A) making peace with Israel and the Jews, B) making peace with non-Muslims and allowing complete freedom of religion, and C) granting more rights and freedoms to women are good things, and will not mean the end of the world, and are, in fact, in his own best interests, and then we have something to work with, and Muhammed will be less inclined to support power-hungry demogogues, mad ayatollahs, and psycho terrorists who inevitably play on the people's inner prejudices and use them to usurp power. That's the key.

As of right now, though, the problem is that Arab/Islamic culture is, at it's heart, an honor/shame culture, kind of like urban gang warfare, where your average Arab man's most prized possession is "his rep" or his honor, ie., how big and bad he is. And when the Arabs are humiliated and shamed, either collectively, when Israel or the U.S. whips their tails in a conflict, or individually, such as when Muhammed's daughter dares to tell him that she will marry whomever she dang well pleases, they feel their "rep" has been trampled on, and the only way to reclaim their "rep" is to go out and prove how big and bad he is, by whippin' some poor fools butt, or beating that smart-mouthed little tramp until she understands who wears the pants in this family.

Such is the problem with Islamic/Arab culture and how to change it.
Click to expand...

Insightful observation, Jetstorm.

I think that the last point that you brought up is ultimately the straw that could break the camel's back when it comes to Islamic control.

Muslim women in Islamic countries could be the key here. They are 50% of Islamic society, and if they ever come to find their own voices then much of the control of Muslim affairs will be "up in the air". Any culture that is SO barbaric to 1/2 of their population (indeed, the part that brings their population into the world!) deserves some SERIOUS comeuppance.

CParso · Nov 29, 2004

Jetstorm said:

-Non-Muslims are people too, and they have rights too. Are you so afraid that your belief system will collapse under scrutiny or due to comparison that you cannot even tolerate the existance of other religions in your midst? You need to be broken of that real quickly, or you are gonna get left behind in the global economy and nobody is gonna want to live in your country.

-Women are people too, and they have rights too. Female genital mutilation, beating women, and treating them as nothing more than cattle is a bad thing. You need to get over that as well, Muhammed.

Basically, Muhammed the Muslim has to be convinced that A) making peace with Israel and the Jews, B) making peace with non-Muslims and allowing complete freedom of religion, and C) granting more rights and freedoms to women are good things, and will not mean the end of the world, and are, in fact, in his own best interests, and then we have something to work with, and Muhammed will be less inclined to support power-hungry demogogues, mad ayatollahs, and psycho terrorists who inevitably play on the people's inner prejudices and use them to usurp power. That's the key.

As of right now, though, the problem is that Arab/Islamic culture is, at it's heart, an honor/shame culture, kind of like urban gang warfare, where your average Arab man's most prized possession is "his rep" or his honor, ie., how big and bad he is. And when the Arabs are humiliated and shamed, either collectively, when Israel or the U.S. whips their tails in a conflict, or individually, such as when Muhammed's daughter dares to tell him that she will marry whomever she dang well pleases, they feel their "rep" has been trampled on, and the only way to reclaim their "rep" is to go out and prove how big and bad he is, by whippin' some poor fools butt, or beating that smart-mouthed little tramp until she understands who wears the pants in this family.
Click to expand...

You make some good points and have great insight on some things in there, but you're basing it off of flawed logic. ISLAM IS NOT A PEACEFUL RELIGION. For thousands of years, it was spread by the sword - if you didn't believe in Islam, you got killed - that will make people convert pretty quickly. Some people might say that the Quran doesn't preach violence, and that its only a rare few who believe that it does. The Quran says that anyone who doesn't believe in Islam is an infidel and not worthy of life. Tell me that doesn't preach violence. This religion can not be tweeked to go along with the western or christian ideals we wish it would. The whole religion is based of a bible which teaches things and builds a foundation completely against anything not-Islam.

martin · Nov 29, 2004

all religions are both super violent, as well as peaceful . that is the problem with religions. they all have normal peaceful followers as well as murderous crusaders. there was a time when radical christians were doing the murdering. it is possible that islam is inherently more violent than other religions, but whatever, it is all interpretation. every religion can be interpreted in any way anyone wants. if we wanted we could quote bible verses that would have christians killing infidels.

discussing what is "real" islam is like discussing what color the real easter bunny is.

red55 · Nov 30, 2004

Jetstorm and Martin rarely agree on matters religious, but both of your last posts make very good points.

Log in or Sign up

The Australian's analysis; what Iraq is really about

bayareatiger If it's too loud YOU'RE TOO OLD

CParso Founding Member

martin Banned Forever

red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

Share This Page