I know it is going to shock people, especially Martin, but I have to weigh in in agreement with him on this issue. The gov't., on any level, has no business promoting/endorsing religious views or teachings.

At one time, America could be said to be largely a Christian country and the practice of organized prayer in schools could have been justified. Not so any more with our religious diversity. Suppose your childs teacher is a Muslim. Would any of you Christian parents be comfortable having them led in a Muslim prayer to Allah? I don't think so. How about an Atheist telling them, " We are not going to pray because there is no God."? I don't think that this would sit too well either.

Unlike the 3r's and civics and history, etc., religion is a private matter to be taught in the home and in one's choice of church or not at all if the case may be. If you want your kids taught religon in school, then send them to a religious school.

What the prayer in school advocates fail to realize is that there is nothing to prevent children from praying in schools now. Only organized prayer led by a teacher or principal or publicly proselytizing one's beliefs is forbidden. Any child can pray any time he/she chooses. Any child can read the Bible or Koran or Torah on school property if they want. They just can't read it aloud and subject others to it unless it is in an organized club which the school has to provide a room for if one is organized by the kids.



As far as the pledge is concerned, imo no true Christian would ever even consider pledging his/her allegiance to anyone or anything other than Jesu Christ. I would never pledge my allegiance to any earthly thing because at some point in time there will be a conflict over what He requires and what the gov't., in this case, would want me to do. But that is beside the point of the discussion. Including the words "under God" clearly connotates a Christian belief and imo should not be included.

But the answer to this question is really rather simple. In view of the fact that America is a country which prides and bases itself on freedom for the individual, things such as the Pledge and prayer should be left to the child and his/her parents to decide to participate or not. Everyone should just be content to have a minute of silence in schools for each child to do as he /she wishes. For adults, we should be mature enough that we can either take it or leave it based upon our individual beliefs. For those who don't believe such as Martin, I feel that they should accept that they are in the minority and custom here is to pray and pledge allegiance in public gatherings and put themselves above pettiness and show their maturity by not getting offended, although personally I don't think public GOVERNMENTAL gatherings should be started off with a prayer/pledge.

As far as "In God We Trust" on our money. I don't think it should be there either. For one thing it's a lie. It should read "In This Money We Trust." We don't trust God. We trust our human leaders. We have virtually no faith in God. We are supposed to be a Christian country with laws based upon the Bible and the Ten Commandments but we choose which ones we follow. God says no one is to work on the Sabbath but you sure see a lot of stores open and people working.

Government is made up of the people, elected, appointed and hired. It doesn't matter how many sayings, pledges or prayers we have if those people do not live up to the ideals, principles and practices of common human dignity and respect. While these things may be rooted in a certain religious belief, they can certainly be practiced apart from it simply for the common good and because it is what is right.



As a Christian, if one reads the Bible, we will see that at no point did/does God or Jesus ever force belief on anyone. It is clear throughout that belief and faith are matters of individual choice. The way I look at it, if it's good enough for them, it ought to be good enough for us!

A decent political argument against school prayer and the pledge.
Possibly, a decent religious argument against both.
Purposely lacking a Constitutional/Judicial argument, which unfortunately is where the battle is being fought.

extremely well said.

not wanting god in government is not an anti religious position. its not that i want my views pushed by the government, it is that i want people to practice whatever they believe (or in my case do not believe) freely and not related to the government.

i dunno why i am talkin, mike said it best:

"religion is a private matter to be taught in the home and in one's choice of church or not at all if the case may be."

right on man. i shoulda been saying it that way all along.

right, i would never want teachers to tell kids there is no god. that is not a teacher's business and i would never say that if i was a teacher. i would tell kids that god is an issue they are to discuss with their families and go from there.

and teachers, excluding religious classes, don't force students to learn about God.

but they teach the pledge, which tells students to pledge allegiance to a nation under god. claiming that isnt religious is crazy. that sort of thing should not be done in schools.

cant you see that even acknowledging the existence of god is a religious statement that not everyone agrees with? religion and public school do not belong together.

would you care if your kids were taught "one nation under allah"?

I personally thank God that THAT hasn't happened...

I almost missed this gem.
Luckily since the string involved religion, I could rest assured that almost 1/2 of the posts would be from the strongest religious fanatic on the board so I didn't have to scroll through to many other persons posts to find such hidden gems.

To quote Jefferson in a letter to Benjamin Rush dated 4/1/1803
"I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others, ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other."

Amazingly, he also addressed you, going back to over 200 years ago.
"They are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions." *emphasis added

GREAT research, M.O.M. :thumb:

martin, you should be so lucky to have the 3rd US President correct you from the hereafter.

"I certainly know" that you should never let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

To quote many before me: "There IS a God!"

Thomas Jefferson stated:

A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian; that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.



Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus.