Sugar Farmers hope for help from Congress

i was almost certain he was wrong on this but i could not back it up.

that's exactly what it is regardless how its spun. this is no different than a subsidy just in a different package.

artificially dictating prices is exactly forcing them to pay higher prices.

i somewhat understand your previous argument though I think i need to try and read it again but the longterm outcome of lowering the standard of living is not very clear.

 

I think Craig's point is that not all companies are based in the US. Or do their manufacturing here. Seems to me that raising steel prices in the US only would drive even more mfg. overseas. Or we put tariffs on anything that comes from other countries, which drops the standard of living in the US. Either way, it's a lose/lose, except for the people that work in that one specific industry.

 

Yes, I realize it has the same effect as a subsidy. I am not saying it is better than a subsidy, and I don't think subsidies are good things.

All I am saying is that its effects are reflected in the price of the good, which was the original question he asked me, where as a straight-up subsidy is not reflected in a good's price. That's all.

I repeat- I am not saying this is better than a subsidy, only that it is reflected in the price.

 

Countries in Asia do it and they seem to be on the economic incline. it worked before NAFTA. Clearly the manufacturing base went SOUTH.. no pun intended, after NAFTA. So whether you PERSONALLY think it is good or not is irevelant. A poor manufacturing base will eventually erode the economy because "we" won't be making anything. it's not hard to figure out really.

I may think the Toronto Blue jays are all soccer players but that doesn't make it so. The manufacturing base is eroding since NAFTA, that's a matter of public record as Red and Chaos so love to say.

 

I certainly see your point JSRacing. I guess my confusion is around the assumption that an economy must have manufacturing to remain viable. That could be true, it's just contrary to anything I've read. Is the concern that people will stop selling us stuff? Why haven't the unemployment numbers or GDP reflected an economic decline as mfg. has left (quickly, I might add.)

I'm not being sarcastic here either...legitimately curious if I'm missing something.

 

although martian and I trumpet capitalism over everything always, i remember reading a philosopher from the 30's-40's, karl popper?? i think. Was an econ class or maybe something i just sparingly read yet his ideology stuck with me. he was of the belief that capitalism was much like fascism and if followed blindly it would eventually disintegrate society.

like there must be some common good for the society beyond simply a profit so to speak. and that capitalism was no different than totalitarianism in the end to where its lack of common good for its people would simply erode it in time.

when you mentioned lower standards of living, this came to mind. maybe this ideology applies here to some degree.

 

why do you need to make something tangible? is microsoft not rich? does wal mart not make money? does a job at cbs not pay because they make programming and not cars?

this assumption that manufacturing is necessary to keep the economy going seems to be based on nothing.

 

hasnt foreign investment exploded in the US since NAFTA and direct investment in mexico is like way less than 1/2 of a percent?

 

i have no idea. i just dont see the difference between manufacturing and service/information jobs when it comes to supporting the economy. LSU doesnt manufacture anything, but they certainly keep baton rouge rolling.

i dont see why the entire nation couldnt be employed in service or programming and research and media or whatever and just buy rice and beans and trucks from overseas. those services are just as valuable as anything. why do i have to able to touch something for it to be a viable thing helping the economy. isnt a guy working at a desk producing something just like a chinaman at a sewing machine all day? whats the difference what the product is if it sells?

 

an economy based soley on services eventually lowers it's standard of living. Similar to the Oil imports. If we become a nation that doesnt make anything with nothing to "export" then the standard of living reverses. The group or nation that Exports actual made goods has the upper economic hand.

for instance our government eventually has to contract a foreign arms manufacturer to make firearms for the Army, a munitions plant in Salvador. Oh but Martin says but they make great cheap munitions in Salvador and they are our friends... then next week a puppet leader decides it's time for a coup. You see the problem here?
While this is a stretch ( example ) and likely we can recover because we normally don't put all our eggs in one basket, but if ALL manufacturing heads overseas then what then? We can't protect what isn't on our soil. I see no reason to keep ANY manufacturing here if we can't compete with foreign labor. So all toliet paper would be made overseas... what are you going to do when a third world country decides you don't need to wipe your ass anymore?

Your assumption that a global economy makes everyone happy is like assuming the whole world will soon adopt the U.S. Constitution and it's inalienable rights. If all nations were as we are, this might work, but somewhere there are groups of people ploting the U.S.'s demise. We might not need to be Isolationist, but we need to be able to support ourselves. You ever hear that old saying.... they have you over a barrel?

We've always had the world over a barrel because the US can make things better, cheaper and it's agriculture is second to none. Well all that is changing because of NAFTA. While the consumer is lead to believe everything is SOOOO much cheaper, in fact the profits are largerly absorbed by the corporation. Sure some of it windfalls down to Martin's example of lil ole ladies who own stock. this has very little effect on the economy. BUT the REAL stock owners aren't people, they are boards of directors in major financial institutions that buy up large blocks of stock and then dictate the bottom line regardles of the the product. What some of you THINK is that as long as it means cheaper goods for me it's good.

NEWS FLASH: You don't live in a bubble. WHATEVER your profession is, you depend on others. In other words what is good for the baker IS good for the candle stick maker. The economy is interwoven and depends on blue collar workers in a manufacturing base.

If we use martin's analogy and fire all the workers then tell them "too bad" get re trained. Ok fine. Now some do get re-trained, become truck drivers, nurses etc... but some stay right there and become tax burdens to the rest of us.

The economy in an area where a factory supported 800 textile workers in a town of 8000 can't support 600 new truck drivers or nurses. AND it certainly doesn't need 600 new welfare recipients.

Now lets say martin is a Pawn broker in this town. Suddenly all the blue collar workers can't get their gun out of hock that they used cash for to take their honey to florida on. Where as ordinarily he/she could have worked a week of overtime and got the gun out or something. AND next year the guy who owns the bungalow in Florida is wondering where all his vacationers went? Maybe a poor example but that's the way life is. I knew some people who lost blue collar jobs in a recent textile mill closing. Good people with pride, squeeking out a living, yet happy to be able to do what they could.

Alot of them are too old to be re-trained, but hey martin can buy his underoo's or depends for a nickel cheaper now.. WOW that's progress. meanwhile your taxes don't stand a snowballs chance in hell of going down after all we can't have the poor unemployed textile workers going hungry now can we? You see the dilehma here?

Mexico is making automotive Cams now. In fact they have been making some engine blocks for years on a limited basis. Now however just about 99% of all cams come from mexico. so what's the problem? major cam failures in record numbers for replacement cams for FORD and GM. 1 out of ten due to the low nodularity content of the Iron ore. Substandard but cheaper, so you'd naturally assume everyone would switch back to US cams right? Not so the manufacturer has gone, closed shop, they are changing, the consumer just suffers.

Same with Underwear, mostly made in mexico using mexican cotton, which is sub standard. Now your BVD's suck air quicker than they used to. :dis: that's not funny folks it's the sad truth. The US held Undie company that has all it's textile mills in mexico passes this nice lil tidbit on to you, because they can, and you'll like it or lump it. They aren't worried about underware, they are concerned about that bottom line....

At the time I thought Ross Perot was a ranting old man, turns out he was right. :shock:
When you become a country that "makes nothing" you become a country with no future. We can't depend on selling technology, we need to use it.