Spin-off thread: Your Favorite Conspiracy Theories

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by LSUsupaFan, Sep 16, 2015.

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  1. Bengal B

    Bengal B Founding Member

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    I used to scoff at you blaming rich people for everything wrong but it says so right there in the bible.

    I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
     
    Bengal B, Sep 16, 2015
    #51
  2. LaSalleAve

    LaSalleAve when in doubt, mumble

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    I don't blame all rich people for making money. There are plenty of rich people who did things the right way, and didn't cheat others to gain their fortune. But the whole 2009 financial crisis just reaks with the stench of corruption. Goldman was selling shit to their clients, knowing they would tank, then betting they would tank, and they were actively pushing the selling of shit. They bought AIG for 2 bucks a share when they knew AIG would tank, they protected themselves from lawsuits. Obama was elected and was supposed to attempt to fix the corruption on Wall Street and he just did the same shit, sat by and let them run amuck.
     
    LaSalleAve, Sep 16, 2015
    #52
  3. Bengal B

    Bengal B Founding Member

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    Nothing happens anywhere in the world that isn't the secret agenda of the illuminati. Every president from George Washington to Obama has been their minion.
     
    Bengal B, Sep 16, 2015
    #53
  4. LSUsupaFan

    LSUsupaFan Founding Member

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    Roger Patterson died a few years after the film was taken. He went to his deathbed claiming it was real. Bob Gimilin is still living, and maintains he was not part of a hoax. He believes the creature to be real, but also acknowledges it could have been an elaborate hoax perpetrated by Patterson.

    A few people have come forward claiming some connection to a hoax but all have been debunked.

    One of the most telling defenses of authenticity comes from the Hollywood special effects community. They all, even John Chambers who designed the apes for Planet of the Apes, agree that the suit would have been nearly impossible to make in 1967, and Patterson did not have access to the necessary materials to make the suit. He also lacked scientific knowledge to create fake casts which were accurate to the gait and locomotion of the creature.
     
    LSUsupaFan, Sep 17, 2015
    #54
  5. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Source? I find this hard to believe. Costumes are not that damned hard to make, especially if they are only seen from a distance. What rare materials? Fur and latex casts? And, of course, "nearly impossible" means possible.

    My dad had a 10th grade education and little scientific knowledge, but he was an expert on tracks and tracking. He could discern not only what animal was making the tracks, but what their gait was and how long the track had been there. I ain't buying this either.
     
    red55, Sep 17, 2015
    #55
  6. LSUsupaFan

    LSUsupaFan Founding Member

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    I don't think you know what you are talking about. This type of special effects required would have cost tens of thousands of dollars in the 60s.

    Per wikipedia...
    Movie production companies' executives[edit]
    • Dale Sheets and Universal Studios. Patterson, Gimlin, and DeAtley[220] screened the film for Dale Sheets, head of the Documentary Film Department, and unnamed technicians[221] "in the special effects department at Universal Studios in Hollywood ... Their conclusion was: 'We could try (faking it), but we would have to create a completely new system of artificial muscles and find an actor who could be trained to walk like that. It might be done, but we would have to say that it would be almost impossible.'"[222] A more moderate version of their opinion was, "if it is [a man in an ape suit], it's a very good one—a job that would take a lot of time and money to produce."[223]
    • Disney executive Ken Peterson. Krantz reports that in 1969, John Green (who owned a first-generation copy of the original Patterson film)[224] interviewedDisney executive Ken Peterson, who, after viewing the Patterson film, asserted "that their technicians would not be able to duplicate the film."[218][221][225]Krantz argues that if Disney personnel were unable to duplicate the film, there is little likelihood that Patterson could have done so. Long writes, "Byrne cited his trip to Walt Disney studios in 1972, where Disney's chief of animation and four assistants viewed Patterson's footage and praised it as a beautiful piece of work although, they said, it must have been shot in a studio. When Byrne told them it had been shot in the woods of Northern California, 'They shook their heads and walked away.'"[123][226]
      • Rick Baker. "Famed Hollywood creator of 'Harry' (from the movie, Harry and the Hendersons), Rick Baker, told Geraldo Rivera's "Now It Can Be Told" show (in 1992) that "it looked like cheap, fake fur," after seeing the subject in Patterson's filmstrip."[233] Baker said that John Chambers had "a crappy walkaround suit," that he sold as "a gag to be played on the guy that shot it [the film]."[234] Later on, Baker's studio stated in a fax, "He no longer believes this [that Chambers made the suit] is true."[235]
      • Ellis Burman. The Guenettes wrote of him, "I also spoke to Ellis Burman of Burman Studios in Hollywood, creators of all kinds of strange creatures, including a fake Bigfoot for a traveling 'pickle and punk' carnival exhibit. Burman denied his company created the Patterson Bigfoot, but did say he could duplicate it—but for more than $10,000 in total costs."[236]
      • John Chambers. Academy Award–winning monster-maker John Chambers is most famous for his innovative flexible masks in "Planet of the Apes" (1968). In a 1997 interview in a nursing home with Bigfooter Bobbie Short, he denied rumors that he had created a costume for the Patterson subject, saying "I'm good, but not that good."[237][238][239][240] Some time before 1976 the Guenettes reported that, in answer to their questions, "He concluded that if the creature is a man in a suit, then it is no ordinary gorilla suit. It is not something they bought or rented in a store; it would have to be something tailor made. He also felt like it might have been made out of real animal fur."[236]
      • Janos Prohaska. After viewing the Patterson–Gimlin film with John Green,[102] costume designer and ape-suit mime Janos Prohaska (noted for his work in the late-1960s television programs Star Trek and Lost in Space) concluded the film's subject looked real to him. When asked if he thought the film was faked, Prohaska replied, "I don't think so ... to me it looks very very real." If the film was hoaxed, Prohaska thought, it was remarkably realistic and sophisticated, and the best costume he had ever seen, and the only plausible explanation was that someone might have glued false hair "directly to the actor's skin."[241]However, film critic David Daegling speculates that the same effect could be had by gluing the hair to a set of tight but expandable, waffle-design long johns.[242]
     
    LSUsupaFan, Sep 17, 2015
    #56
  7. Bengal B

    Bengal B Founding Member

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    I saw a guy at a Halloween party one time wearing a bigfoot costume. He was wearing some of those stilts used by sheet rock people so he looked about 8 feet tall standing up. Looked pretty real. If he had had a lot more money to spend on materials and Hollywood designers to make the costume it might have fooled anybody.

    Someone wearing such a costume with the stilts might account for the unnatural gait seen in the grainy Bigfoot film footage.
     
    Bengal B, Sep 17, 2015
    #57
  8. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Likewise, but the burden of proof is on the claimant.

    So? Hoaxers have been known to spend money on their hoaxes. Patterson rented a professional movie camera with expensive color film. He did not just happen to be there with a Super-8 home movie camera. Patterson had an advance from the AME film company that he used to rent the camera and make the ape suit. And he reported $200,000 in the first year of the bigfoot business he started. http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4375

    From the same wikipedia article you copied . . .

    In 1995,[126] almost three decades after the Patterson–Gimlin filming, Greg Long,[127] a technical writer for a technology firm who had a hobby of investigating and writing about Northwest mysteries, started years of interviewing people who knew Patterson, some of whom described him as a liar and a conman.

    The whereabouts of the original is unknown, although there are several speculations, mostly online, as to what happened to it.

    Typical objections include: Neither humans nor chimpanzees have hairy breasts as does the figure in the film, and critics have argued these features are evidence against authenticity. Napier has noted that a sagittal crest is "only very occasionally seen, to an insignificant extent, in chimpanzees [sic] females."[159]
    • Gimlin. Patterson and Gimlin both denied that they had perpetrated a hoax, but in a 1999 telephone interview with television producer Chris Packham for the BBC's The X Creatures, Gimlin said that for some time, "I was totally convinced no one could fool me. And of course I'm an older man now...and I think there could have been the possibility [of a hoax]. But it would have to be really well planned by Roger [Patterson]."[249]
    • David Daegling, anthropologist, writes that the "more cynical skeptics" see Patterson's luck as "more than a little suspicious: He sets out to make a Bigfoot documentary, then almost literally stumbles across a Bigfoot." Bluff Creek had also been the site of well-known Bigfoot hoaxer Ray Wallace in 1958. In Patterson's book, he mentions meeting with Wallace once.[251] Later, Daegling cites certain features in the film and the storyline as suspicious.[252]
    Philip Morris
    In 2002, Philip Morris of Morris Costumes (a North Carolina-based company offering costumes, props and stage products) claimed that he made a gorilla costume that was used in the Patterson film. Morris says he discussed his role in the hoax "at costume conventions, lectures, [and] magician conventions"[254] in the 1980s, but first addressed the public at large on August 16, 2002, on Charlotte, North Carolina, radio station WBT-AM.[255] His story was also printed in The Charlotte Observer.[256] Morris claims he was reluctant to expose the hoax earlier for fear of harming his business: giving away a performer's secrets, he said, would be widely regarded as disreputable.[257]

    Morris said that he sold an ape suit to Patterson via mail-order in 1967, thinking it was going to be used in what Patterson described as a "prank."[258] (Ordinarily the gorilla suits he sold were used for a popular side-show routine that depicted an attractive woman changing into a gorilla.) After the initial sale, Morris said that Patterson telephoned him asking how to make the "shoulders more massive"[259] and the "arms longer."[260] Morris says he suggested that whoever wore the suit should wear football shoulder pads and hold sticks in his hands within the suit.

    As for the creature's walk, Morris said:

    The Bigfoot researchers say that no human can walk that way in the film. Oh, yes they can! When you're wearing long clown's feet, you can't place the ball of your foot down first. You have to put your foot down flat. Otherwise, you'll stumble. Another thing, when you put on the gorilla head, you can only turn your head maybe a quarter of the way. And to look behind you, you've got to turn your head and your shoulders and your hips. Plus, the shoulder pads in the suit are in the way of the jaw. That's why the Bigfoot turns and looks the way he does in the film. He has to twist his entire upper body.[261]

    Bob Heironimus
    Bob Heironimus claims to have been the figure depicted in the Patterson film.[262] Heironimus says he had not previously publicly discussed his role in the hoax because he hoped to be repaid eventually and was afraid of being convicted of fraud had he confessed. After speaking with his lawyer he was told that since he had not been paid for his involvement in the hoax that he could not be held accountable.

    A month after watching the December 28, 1998 television special World's Greatest Hoaxes: Secrets Finally Revealed, he went public, via a January 30 press release by his lawyer, Barry Woodard, in a Yakima newspaper story.[263] He stated, "I'm telling the truth. I'm tired after thirty-seven years."[261] Five days later, a second newspaper story reported that his "lawyer's office has been inundated with calls from media outlets . . . . 'We're just sort of waiting for the dust to settle,' he said, explaining he and his client are evaluating offers." He also said, "We anticipate that we will be telling the full story to somebody rather quickly."[264]

    Heironimus's name was first publicly revealed, and his allegations first publicly detailed, five years later, in Greg Long's book, The Making of Bigfoot, which includes testimony that corroborates Heironimus' claims:
    • Heironimus's relatives (mother Opal and nephew John Miller) claim to have seen an ape suit in Heironimus' car. Opal said she saw the suit two days after the film was shot.[265]
    • Russ Bohannon, a longtime friend, says that Heironimus revealed the hoax privately in 1968 or 1969.[266]
    • Bernard Hammermeister, another longtime friend, said he was shown an ape suit in Heironimus' car. No date was given by Long for Hammermeister's observation, but it apparently came well after the relatives' observation, as implied by the word "still" in the justification Heironimus gave Hammermeister for requesting his silence: "There was still supposed to be a payola on this thing, and he didn't have it."[267]


    Plus there is a long list of people who have studied the film and labeled it a hoax.

    http://www.strangemag.com/chambers17.html
    My investigation did not lead to the craftsman of the Patterson suit, but one thing is clear -- none of the foremost makeup special effects experts in Hollywood that I interviewed think that the Patterson Bigfoot is anything but a man in a suit. Bigfoot buffs have perpetuated the myth that special makeup effects artists believed that the Patterson film was hard, if not impossible, to fake. This article should lay to rest any notion that makeup experts were generally impressed by the Patterson film.​

    http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/korff04.htm

    http://bigfootevidence.blogspot.com/2011/11/breakdown-of-patterson-gimlin-footage.html
     
    red55, Sep 17, 2015
    #58
  9. Bengal B

    Bengal B Founding Member

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    Drug smuggling
    See also: Allegations of CIA drug trafficking
    During the CIA's secret war in Laos, the CIA used the Meo (Hmong) population to fight Pathet Lao rebels. Because of the war against Pathet Lao rebels, the Meo depended upon poppy cultivation for hard currency. The Meo were very important to CIA operations and the CIA was very concerned with their well-being. The Plain of Jars had been captured by Pathet Lao rebels in 1964 which resulted in the Laotian Air Force not being able to land their C-47 transport aircraft on the Plain of Jars for opium transport. The Laotian Air Force had almost no light planes that could land on the dirt runways near the mountaintop poppy fields. Having no way to transport their opium, the Meo were faced with economic ruin. Air America was the only airline available in northern Laos. "According to several sources, Air America began flying opium from mountain villages north and east of the Plain of Jars to Gen Vang Pao's headquarters at Long Tieng."[7]

    Air America were alleged to have profited from transporting opium and heroin on behalf of Hmong leader Vang Pao,[8][9][10]or of "turning a blind eye" to the Laotian military doing it.[11][12] This allegation has been supported by former Laos CIA paramilitary Anthony Poshepny (aka Tony Poe), former Air America pilots, and other people involved in the war. It is portrayed in the movie Air America. However, University of Georgia historian William M. Leary, writing on behalf of Air America, claims that this was done without the airline employees' direct knowledge and that the airline did not trade in drugs.[1] Curtis Peebles denies the allegation, citing Leary's study as evidence.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
    Bengal B, Sep 17, 2015
    #59
  10. CajunlostinCali

    CajunlostinCali Booger Eatin Moron

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    Always knew John Holmes had everything to do with the wunderland murders. Aids was his great equalizer.

    Sucks when a certified piece of shit escapes justice, only to remain a legend at anything other than being a piece of shit. Karma is a bitch. Died at a VA hospitol. Fucking disgrace.
     
    CajunlostinCali, Sep 17, 2015
    #60
    LaSalleAve likes this.
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