Soviet Union survivor: President spits in face of every U.S. citizen

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by saltyone, Apr 12, 2009.

  1. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    There weren't many Christians either. Certainly no religious fundamentalists.

    You're guessing, of course.

    Even most Christians do not consider Thomas Jefferson a Christian. In many of his letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god." Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

    George Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism. Washington's initiation occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4 November 1752, later becoming a Master mason in 1799, and remained a freemason until he died.

    Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

    Ben Franklin's autobiography revels his skepticism, "My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself."

    John Adams wrote "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that has ever existed?"

    John Quincy Adams was a Unitarian.

    Called the father of the Constitution, James Madison had no conventional sense of Christianity. In 1785, Madison wrote in his Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments: "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
     
  2. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Why does a student require a school to provide him with a special moment to publicly pray. Believers can pray any time they want to and most do many times a day anyway.

    Religion belongs in the church. Education belongs in the classroom.
     
  3. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Their very job is to interpret the Constitution. That is their interpretation.
     
  4. SabanFan

    SabanFan The voice of reason

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    BS. As Thurgood Marshall once said (paraphrasing): I'll rule for justice and the law can catch up.


    Jefferson and Frankilin were Deists, it is widely believed. To deny that the Constitution is grounded in a belief in the Almighty is to be ignorant and obstinate to the point of being stupid.
     
  5. LSUsupaFan

    LSUsupaFan Founding Member

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    Whether the student requires the moment of silence or not is not at issue. The issue is if students' rights are violated by the moment of silence. I don't see how any excercise of logic can conclude that the state establishes a religion by offering a moment of silence.
     
  6. LSUsupaFan

    LSUsupaFan Founding Member

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    I agree that many of the framers of the Constitution were not Christian. They were most certainly deiists.

    Does that not shread the arguement that they intended for government to be secular. Where was the outrage when the 1st Congressional session opened with an overtly Christian prayer? Where were the condemnations of Passion plays held on public squres and funded with public monies?

    No open minded study of our country's history can possibly come to the conclusion that a secular society was the intent of the framers. Such interpretations are extremely modern.
     
  7. saltyone

    saltyone So Mote It Be

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    Red, please explain why the First Reader (Congressional approved book used in public schools) included the following material:

    The Bible:
    1. The Talents
    2. God's Dominion and Man's Dependence (Psalms XXIV and XC)
    3. The Effect of Paul's Teaching at Ephesus
    4. The Sublimity of God (Psalms CIV)
    5. The Glory of God (Psalms XIX)
    6. God's Mightiness and Tenderness (Psalms CII and CIII)

    Read some of this selection from the fifth edition (Published 1878). Click on it red...I dare you.

    Click Here

    New England Primer:
    Used in public and private schools from 1690 to 1900 second only to the Bible
    Some of its contents:
    A song of praise to God
    Prayers in Jesus’ name
    The famous Bible alphabet
    Shorter Catechism of faith in Christ



    Would our society be a better place if we still taught these lessons to our children in the classroom? I believe it would.


    Have you ever read this red?

    It's just a little document titled "The Mayflower Compact".

    First Charter of Virgina...
    Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)
    John Adams and John Hancock:
    John Adams:
    Samuel Adams:

    John Quincy Adams:

    Benjamin Franklin:

    Alexander Hamilton:

    John Hancock:

    Patrick Henry:


    John Jay:



    Thomas Jefferson:

    Samuel Johnston:


    James Madison

    James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution


    Jedediah Morse:

    Thomas Paine:

    Benjamin Rush:

    Justice Joseph Story:

    Noah Webster:


    George Washington:

    I could go on red. Stop trying to rewrite history. Feel free to say the founding fathers were wrong, ignorant, stupid, narrow minded, whatever, but don't say they were not Christians and God fearing men. It is disgraceful the way you sometimes try to mislead others on this site.
     
    2 people like this.
  8. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Then make your case! Your arguments, on the rare occasion you make them, usually consist of calling people morons, who are ignorant and stupid. Not very convincing, I'm afraid.
     
  9. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    The Supreme court disagrees.
     
  10. LSUsupaFan

    LSUsupaFan Founding Member

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    Yeah. Those guys have been wrong on lots of things. Dread Scott, abortion...what's your point?
     

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