So Russia is taking over the Ukraine

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by islstl, Mar 1, 2014.

  1. MLUTiger

    MLUTiger Secular Humanist

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  2. LSUpride123

    LSUpride123 PureBlood

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    It would spark a world conflict IMO, would be a freaking bloody mess.
     
  3. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    That's why it likely won't happen. But, like the article says, Russia is willing to sacrifice a lot to win even if overwhelmed, as it was in early WWII. The Soviets had to retreat mile by mile all the way to within sight of Moscow. They had to give up a lot of land and lives to finally hold the Germans and begin to push them back. They did the same thing during Napoleons invasion of Russia. This has given the Russians the strategic viewpoint that a wide buffer between the enemy and the homeland is what Russia's survival depends upon.

    The trouble is . . . that Soviet land that they gave up in retreat was largely Ukraine and Belarus. After WWII the Soviets added to this buffer by grabbing all of the Eastern European countries. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, those Warsaw Pact countries have become part of NATO. But the Russians cling to Belarus and Ukraine doggedly as their only remaining buffer from European invaders. In Putin's mind they are still part of the Soviet Union, despite their independence.

    I think the ultimate compromise will have to be a return to the status quo, where NATO doesn't try to add these buffer countries to NATO and the Soviet Union respects their sovereignty. The status quo also permits Russians to have their strategic bases in the Crimea. But they seem to be determined not to trust Ukraine and simply annex Crimea. The blowback is that Ukraine will then turn closer to the West to help prevent any more land grabs, which will make the Russians even more paranoid.
     
  4. LaSalleAve

    LaSalleAve when in doubt, mumble

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    Why the fuck does Russia need more fucking land? They don't use 60 percent of the shit they have. Now they want more. I don't get it, no one is invading Russia. Putin is a fucking douchebag closet homo.
     
  5. MLUTiger

    MLUTiger Secular Humanist

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    Russia has a huge naval base there and they're not happy sharing a border with a NATO alley or EU country. They will do what they can to keep them isolated and dependent upon Russia while preventing from forming allies with the EU.

    Instead of stepping into the millennium and embracing it they're trying to keep everyone else down in squalor with them...
     
  6. LaSalleAve

    LaSalleAve when in doubt, mumble

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    Why does Russia have a naval base there? Left over soviet shit?
     
  7. LSUpride123

    LSUpride123 PureBlood

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    If the people of Crimea vote to be apart of Russia, I see no issues.
     
  8. MLUTiger

    MLUTiger Secular Humanist

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    Well, the Russians have been there for about 200 years, but that's not why it's there. The location is strategic. It's a warm-water port and Russia has limited access to the sea. Specifically the location is Sevastopol and it's their only warm-water port. Ukraine was set to kick them out in 2017, but the lease was recently extended after Russia jacked up the price of fuel until they caved. Now Russia will be there until at least 2042. Now that their naval base in Syria has closed, this base is even more important.

    I'd say it's the the same reason they have one in Cuba and we have them all over the world. It's not really unusual.
     
  9. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Russia is trying really hard to maintain the impression that they are as strong as the Soviet Union . . . but they ain't. Hundreds of Soviet naval ships are rusting at dock in every Russian port. Their navy has shrunken significantly and is falling behind technologically. Still, without the Crimean ports, they have nothing at all except ports that are ice-locked for half the year. The Russian navy is no threat to anyone outside the Black Sea itself, really. They only have two very small refueling bases in Syria and Cuba that they rarely use because the Soviet Navy spends most of its time at anchor to save money.

    The bad thing for them is that they cannot get out of the Black Sea into the Mediterranean without passing through the Turkish straits. And even then they are smothered with NATO airpower. Russia cannot get its submarines to sea stealthily. Turkey is a long-time NATO member and is heavily armed. They have the legal right to deny passage to warships and they have the physical capability to mine the straits and make them useless to the Russians unless they invaded and occupied the most populated part of Turkey, which would mean war with NATO.

    Even worse, the Soviet Black Sea fleet is so small that the Italian Navy could beat them if they ever left the Black Sea and Russian air cover. The US 6th Fleet would overwhelm them completely in the open ocean. For these reasons we have never cared much if the Soviets have naval bases in Crimea. They are for show and give the Soviets no real strategic advantage.

    Geopolitically, the Russians dominate the Eurasian land mass, the biggest continent on the planet. Russia has the size, the natural resources, the people, and logistical interior lines to protect itself from all comers in a major ground war. But they are very poorly situated to ever be a force at sea. This crippled them during the Cold War when they had a giant navy on paper but couldn't get it anywhere because of ice, poor logistics and lack of overseas bases.
     
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  10. LSUpride123

    LSUpride123 PureBlood

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    Spot on.

    The only thing Russia has of any value is their air defense system and nukes.
     

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