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Priorities, Priorities - the Cindy Sheehan situation

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by Mystikalilusion, Aug 10, 2005.

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SabanFan The voice of reason

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I like you Red, but what the hell qualifies you to critique decisions made at the highest levels of the military. You were not involved and you don't have a scintilla of the information available to them. That's what get's me about all of the armchair quarterbacks. Label it as opinion if you must, but don't act like you know better than the President, Defense Secretary and Joint Chiefs.

SabanFan, Aug 19, 2005

#131
CParso Founding Member

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red55 said:

I think it is deniable. There was nothing preventing Rumsfeld from going in with a bigger force, it was all at his disposal. He was correct in that a small force was all that was needed to defeat Iraq's standing army. It was a major blunder that he failed to realize that a prolonged occupation would require many more troops. It was a collossal blunder that he has never recognized his error and corrected it. Either put in the whole force and lock the country down or leave the place to the ragheads. This administration is incapable of admitting error and is bent on defending failed policies.
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More support = more enrollment, which means more of a force capable of being sent over. Also means no opposition to sending them there. It makes sense to me. I don't see why you want to debate that.

So Bush can't make a presidential decision in the face of political opposition? That's probably true, and its pathetic. "The insurgency is in its final throes", says Dick Cheney. Bush thought it was "mission accompished" when he landed on the carrier in San Diego harbor several years ago. Denial of reality is endemic to this administration.
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I already alluded to this. However, as I pointed out, he would be criticized regardless because of people being blinded by political loyalties. Denial of reality is what politics are all about. It's not this President's fault.

Bush's job is to to do the right thing. And if he gets us into a war, it is his job to win it. If he failed to get the widespread popular support he desires before starting a war, it is his fault. If he's trying to "please both sides" and allows an unsatisfactory status quo to continue, he is incompetent at his job. If he failed to accomplish what he expected in Iraq, it is his responsibility to correct the problem, even if it means a reversal of a unsuccessful policy.
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And would that make both sides happy? You can't make both sides happy. Reversing policy just pisses off the other half.

CParso, Aug 19, 2005

#132
Mystikalilusion Founding Member

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SabanFan said:

I like you Red, but what the hell qualifies you to critique decisions made at the highest levels of the military. You were not involved and you don't have a scintilla of the information available to them. That's what get's me about all of the armchair quarterbacks. Label it as opinion if you must, but don't act like you know better than the President, Defense Secretary and Joint Chiefs.
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Uh, if we don't critique our leaders decisions, who will?

Mystikalilusion, Aug 19, 2005

#133
red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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SabanFan said:

I like you Red, but what the hell qualifies you to critique decisions made at the highest levels of the military. You were not involved and you don't have a scintilla of the information available to them. That's what get's me about all of the armchair quarterbacks. Label it as opinion if you must, but don't act like you know better than the President, Defense Secretary and Joint Chiefs.
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I never claimed to be an expert on anything around here . . . except barbecue, maybe. The facts that I stated above are easy to find or common knowledge for somebody who's done a little reading on it. The opinions are my own and I try to illustrate them with some of the sources and reasonings behind them. I can have an opinion on any damn thing I want to, you know, based on whatever information I've found. If somebody else has more and better information, then let him speak! Then I'll re-consider.

I like you too, SabanFan, and I understand that you have a very different opinion. But I don't understand why you attack a proponent's right to reason and speak instead of attacking his actual proposition. If I get a fact wrong, then call me on it. If you think I missed an important consideration, then point it out. If you think I'm lying, then say so and be prepared to prove it. If I am wrong, then convince me.

Instead, you are suggesting to me that I need to be "qualified" to hold my own opinions. It's kind of lame for you, amigo. Especially since I go to the effort to explain my reasons and support them with facts regularly.

I am the undisputed world's friggin' expert on red55's opinions. You are free to shoot those opinions down, if you can. But you are wasting your time if you think there are "levels" where I'm not entitled to think and draw conclusions. Do I know everything Rumsfeld knows? Of course, not, but I'm not arguing with Rumsfeld (I'd be more careful :grin: ). I'm arguing with you about what we know.

I'm sincerely interested in what you think. Perhaps you will shoot my arguments full of holes or catch me with a fact in error. I'll deal with it. But informing me I'm not qualified to hold a particular opinion . . . that's just resigning from the game. Better we shoot each others idea's full of holes and agree to disagree.

red55, Aug 19, 2005

#134
red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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CParso said:

Reversing policy just pisses off the other half.
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Sticking by bad decisions is inherently a bad policy and constitutes poor leadership, indeed. The president must represent each "half".

red55, Aug 19, 2005

#135
LSUDeek All That She Wants...

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At least SF is consistent. He looks down upon those who critique the LSU coaching staff decisions just as much (and for the same reason) as he does those who critique the U.S. Government's. :hihi:

LSUDeek, Aug 19, 2005

#136
martin Banned Forever

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i undstand and agree with sabanfans opinion regarding the criticism of military tactics. we have military leaders making tactical decisions, and we really have no clue if they are right or wrong. we have armchair quarterbacks on both sides calling out opinions, but as far as i can tell that kinda thing is not something any of us are equipped to analyze.

i think we can offer more educated opinions on general policy, but i dont feel qualified to critique any specific military policy. for instance i am not gonna say "we need more troops at location x. how should i know how many troops it takes to handle location x?

of course bush in general is open for criticism.

martin, Aug 19, 2005

#137
SabanFan The voice of reason

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red55 said:

I never claimed to be an expert on anything around here . . . except barbecue, maybe. The facts that I stated above are easy to find or common knowledge for somebody who's done a little reading on it. The opinions are my own and I try to illustrate them with some of the sources and reasonings behind them. I can have an opinion on any damn thing I want to, you know, based on whatever information I've found. If somebody else has more and better information, then let him speak! Then I'll re-consider.

I like you too, SabanFan, and I understand that you have a very different opinion. But I don't understand why you attack a proponent's right to reason and speak instead of attacking his actual proposition. If I get a fact wrong, then call me on it. If you think I missed an important consideration, then point it out. If you think I'm lying, then say so and be prepared to prove it. If I am wrong, then convince me.

Instead, you are suggesting to me that I need to be "qualified" to hold my own opinions. It's kind of lame for you, amigo. Especially since I go to the effort to explain my reasons and support them with facts regularly.

I am the undisputed world's friggin' expert on red55's opinions. You are free to shoot those opinions down, if you can. But you are wasting your time if you think there are "levels" where I'm not entitled to think and draw conclusions. Do I know everything Rumsfeld knows? Of course, not, but I'm not arguing with Rumsfeld (I'd be more careful :grin: ). I'm arguing with you about what we know.

I'm sincerely interested in what you think. Perhaps you will shoot my arguments full of holes or catch me with a fact in error. I'll deal with it. But informing me I'm not qualified to hold a particular opinion . . . that's just resigning from the game. Better we shoot each others idea's full of holes and agree to disagree.
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I said if it's opinion then you should label it as such. Your post made blanket accusations of mistakes and blunders when, in fact, you have no idea as to what information was utilized to arrive at those decisions and, further, how many learned minds had input into the final decisions. You have access to meager scraps of information disseminated by subjective sources, which information is slanted to a particular point of view. I prefer to give an opinion as to the outcome generated by the decisions of our country's political and military leadership, however, I also recognize that they have a very difficult, if not impossible job, and I respect their right to be wrong once in a while.

SabanFan, Aug 19, 2005

#138
red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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martin said:

i think we can offer more educated opinions on general policy, but i dont feel qualified to critique any specific military policy. for instance i am not gonna say "we need more troops at location x. how should i know how many troops it takes to handle location x?

of course bush in general is open for criticism.
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I can quote the retired generals remarks about troop strengths, can't I? And having done that I can make opinions based upon that. I can read military manuals and research military policy and I can make opinions based on that too. I know how to find facts, analyze data, and draw conclusions from them, martin. I do this for a living. I have 50 years of observing the world around me, including several dozen wars and ten presidents.

I say again, If my facts are in error, then call me on it. If my opinions are unsuportable, then shoot them down with some evidence. Demand evidence from me if you think I'm bullchitting. But don't tell me that I'm unqualifed to have thoughts about such things.

I don't give a rat's ass if you think my opinions are wrong, although I may ask you to show me your reasons why. But this ridiculous notion that someone is not "qualified" to critique global geopolitics, just because he has never actually ran a nation is asinine. We can have an opinion about anything. Most of us have never coached football either, but we all have an opinion.

red55, Aug 19, 2005

#139
red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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SabanFan said:

I said if it's opinion then you should label it as such.
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This is an informal forum and nobody is going to start making footnotes and cross-references like it was a dissertation. I'm an anonymous internet character, of course it is opinion. Let me quote from your User Agreement on TigerForums:

#1 -- Everything you read and post is OPINION. NOTHING should be construed as FACT.

If you ever wish for me to clarify whether a statement I made is fact or opinion, I will be happy to tell you. If it is a fact I will either document it with evidence or STFU. If it is my opinion, then you must accept that I have opinions.

SabanFan said:

Your post made blanket accusations of mistakes and blunders when, in fact, you have no idea as to what information was utilized to arrive at those decisions and, further, how many learned minds had input into the final decisions.
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Nobody knows everything, of course. But, I've done much study on many subjects and I know enough from public sources to form some opinions, as have you I might add. Learned minds do not live exclusively in high places.

SabanFan said:

You have access to meager scraps of information disseminated by subjective sources, which information is slanted to a particular point of view. I prefer to give an opinion as to the outcome generated by the decisions of our country's political and military leadership
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You have no idea how meager my sources are if I don't list them, which I usually do. If you wish to base your opinions only on what you are told, that's your bag. But I base my opinions on the total knowledge available to me, because I have been mislead by politicians before.

Again I maintain . . . If I am in error, lying, or wrong, you should point it out to me. Just don't suggest that I'm unqualified to have an opinion that deviates from the party line. It's just an attempt to discredit me personally in the absence of a proper response to my arguments.

SabanFan said:

I also recognize that they have a very difficult, if not impossible job, and I respect their right to be wrong once in a while.
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So do I, but we can talk about it on a political forum, can't we. This is America and those guys are politicians and they work for us.

red55, Aug 19, 2005

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