(Official) Hoops Post-Season Tourney Watch Thread

Congrats, Trent! Look despite what general "fans" will say, this team improved this year. Usually, the COY awards signify something... a coach has done more than what was expected of him.

Speaking of which, this just came across the hoops news...

FBI investigatin Auburn Tigers' Varez Ward for point shaving, according to report - ESPN

WOW. Where there is smoke there is fire, too. Tony Barbee... a Calipari disciple. :redface:

In any case, who says recruiting character guys doesn't help a program?

:geauxtige :geauxtige :geauxtige :geauxtige :geauxtige

 

Aside from the UK game today, I think last nights SEC Tourney results really sour the LSU win yesterday.

Ole Miss gets by Auburn, and Georgia upsets Miss St. Sort of the worst of all worlds, b/c if LSU wants a NIT spot, it really wants at least 5 teams from the SEC making the tourney leaving it to pick up one of two (maybe 3?) NIT bids. If you consider UK, UF, Vandy and Bama locks, everyone else now is sort of on the bubble. Miss St would have probably been the 5th team pretty assuredly if they had won, but now, UGA casts some doubt there. Tennessee is still likely a bubble team, unless it makes a run all the way, and Ole Miss still is there alive.

NCAA College Basketball Scores - NCAA Basketball - ESPN

The unfortunately reality of this year, is the few losses at the end of the season, and the seeding in the SECT leading to a game vs Kentucky, really seem like the obstacles this year to potential post-season play.

 

Actually the fluke comment should have been included in my prior arguments that fans had against Brown. I realized I'd put it out of the context of my argument after I posted.

While a highly motivational coach he was always ostracized for what he didn't do in his 25+ years as coach. He made post season about half the time he was coach and about half of those times did they make it out of the 1st round. I'm not knocking the guy...just showing how unrealistic fans are being these days.

 

Let's keep it in perspective

Ok, the regular season’s over, as we wait for a potential post-season bid to the NIT, I have to reflect on a hopefully not-over-yet season of 2011-12 LSU men’s basketball.

For a while I’ve wanted to post this opinion piece. I have loved LSU basketball and followed it probably ever since about 1981 and the first final four run of Daddy Dale. I’ve seen a lot of ups and downs since then, and certainly within the last decade and a half, there have been even more ups and downs. Brown gave way to Brady and then to Trent. Through it all, I’ve been supportive of LSU hoops along the way, hoping for a break through to consistent winning. Of late, Trent Johnson has come under fire, for two 11 win seasons. As he should. But, now, after a 18-14 season there seems, even despite a +7 win turnaround, to be folks down, fire the coach talk still exists, and the LSU crowd at the SEC tournament, in New Orleans no less, is pretty apathetic. Am I surprised? Not really. Am I disappointed with this? Certainly.

I think this first post-season post comes because I hope that LSU fans (particularly those of a more recent, non-basketball loving, LSU generation) gain a little bit of perspective. Those folks most quick to talk about firing a coach talk about how not making the NCAA should be cause for firing a coach. They often forget that only 65 teams out of 344 NCAA teams make the “big” dance (less than 19%), when close to half of Div I football schools make a bowl game (only 120 FBS Div 1 schools). If you add the 32 NIT teams, that’s still less than 28% of college basketball teams who see the post season. When folks talk about teams not making the NCAA dance “sucking” or the NIT’s a waste of time, it just chaps my hide. After all, if we fired all of the coaches that didn’t get their kids into post-season play, we’d be firing 72% of the coaches every year. Dale Brown, who still stands as LSU’s most successful coach, made the post season only 15 times out of his 25 year career (and 2 of those were NIT bids)—it also took him 7 years to make his first postseason tournament. Brady, well, he only went to the post season 6 out of his 11 years at LSU (and 2 of those were NIT bids). Outside of LSU, Brady never has seen post-season play at Samford and Arkansas St (10 years). Even if you look at this year alone, you see some of the “great” coaches who may not even see the NIT… Ben Howland at UCLA, Mike Anderson at Arkansas, Brad Stevens at Butler, Mark Turgeon at Maryland. I’m sure that UCLA fans have a lot more reason to be upset at potentially not even going to post-season play than LSU fans that Trent Johnson may not have his team in the post-season

If you look at Trent as a coach, over his 12 years as a head coach (we exclude this year, b/c we don’t know yet what his post-season results are), at 3 different schools, his teams made the post season 7 (2 NITs) times out of those years—he also made the post season at each school he coached at. Moreover, as true basketball fans would appreciate, his records at those schools are oddly predictable, and consistent. Does our record this year look familiar?

Nevada
9-20
10-18
17-13
18-14 (NIT)
25-9 (NCAA)

Stanford
18-13 (NCAA)
16-14 (NIT)
18-13 (NCAA)
28-8 (NCAA)

LSU
27-8 (NCAA)
11-20
11-20
18-14 (?)
?

While it’s certainly no guarantee of next year’s potential improvement, I am optimistic with his track record the year after his “turning the corner” year. It shows the baseline of a team has solidified, and this LSU team is mostly sophomores and freshmen, and a senior 7 footer, and that leaves room for optimism.

 

Hey, Tiger'n'hornland...

You ever go to watch the kids at the ball park play, and there always seem to be those parents who feel great or bad depending on how well their kid plays? You know, those parents who are living their lives vicariously through their kids. They always blame the coach for not playing their kid enough or for not playing man-to-man...or for not calling time out when they should...or for playing the goofy kid too much.

Well, when their kid plays on a losing team...bottom line...it's the coaches fault.


Guess what?


Those are the LSU fans that don't follow basketball. Those are the fans that want to fire Johnson because they can't beat their chest with pride since they aren't in the NCAA tourney.

He doesn't win enough to make them feel all warm and fuzzy at work on Monday morning.

Sorry, it had to be said...but it's the truth. :bball:

 

LSU basketball since the end of the Dale Brown era can be summed up in one word: inconsistency. It was the pattern throughout the John Brady era, and exists on a smaller scale on the current team. It's become the norm, it's like watching a kid play that you know has great potential, but can just never put everything together to be highly successful. As a result, it's difficult to get fans excited.

If your team is a perennial loser, it's easier to support a new coach with a change in direction, because there are no expectations to meet. On the other side of the spectrum, fans of highly successful teams won't tolerate failure for long, and their interest in the team is already high. LSU is like a schizophrenic roller-coaster. It had enough recent success during the highs to have somewhat elevated expectations for the future. But the lows have become more frequent and lasted longer. It's hard for fans to form an emotional attachment for that kind of program.

I've seen lots of "true basketball fans" pat themselves on the back and sneer at fans who didn't get on board after the FF run. They rarely mention that Brady followed up what should have been a huge momentum boost with a combined 6-17 SEC record the next two years.

Fast forward to 2012. LSU can't decide which team it wants to be on any given night, or even between halves on the same night. One game they're pounding the glass, the next they're getting out-rebounded by midgets from South Alabama. Hot shooters go cold for minutes and minutes on end. Once solid FT shooters suddenly can't go 50% from the line. The squad that hung with the nation's #1 for almost an entire game gets blown out on the road twice by mediocre squads. That is a difficult product for non-hardcore fans to rally behind.

The NIT will at least give the guys some invaluable post-season experience. Here's hoping we've turned the corner.

 

This year was a crucial year in the development of the program, and I think we have seen enough improvement to believe that we are headed in the right direction. It's probably even more crucial now to sustain that into next year, and in order to do that, Trent has got to pick up a couple more pieces in this years recruiting class. If he can do that, this could be a top 3-4 team in the SEC. I think Kentucky and Alabama will probably be the cream of the league next year, but we could be in (or leading) that next group with Florida, Vanderbilt, and maybe Tennessee.

It's just tough to see that when looking at the last few weeks because we realistically had a shot at doing that this year. If we just win the games we are supposed to (Coastal Carolina, South Alabama, and the final 3 SEC games), we would have been looking at a 23-9 (10-6) season with a bid to the big dance.

I was never a fan of Brady. Dude had a losing record in the SEC for his career, and he was a smug ass. I truly believe that the program is in better hands with Trent.

 

Yeah, but the problem is not just our fan base. It's all about people not being able to manage their expectations, in all aspects of our society. If you have reasonable expectations, then you appreciate all of the nuances that go along with it, like some of the things you point out. Look at the current RShepard thread. All of the talk is about whether he is a bust, and frustrations about how professional coaches don't see the obvious on how to utilize him. None of it is about the lessons RS is learning about being a man, or other positive aspects of being on a championship football team at a great university, etc. You could really substitute CLMs name with Bear Bryant or Bo Schembechler, or other great coaches whose fan base at some time or another complains about their lack of player utilization, predictable play calling, etc. Just as you could substitute CTJs name with others who started off a bit slow for the liking of the fan base. Look at Coach Boeheim's and Coach K's records the first 5 years. Look how long Dean Smith took to win his first NC. Look at, dare I say, how long Joe Pa took to make PSU a winner in football (5-7 years). To do it right takes some time, but patience is at an all time low, I suppose.

 

But, that's exactly why I posted... is it inconsistency, or is it just pretty damn hard to keep a basketball program, when kids spend anywhere from 1-4 years on your team, going to post-season play? When UCLA cannot even find post-season play despite the talent on their team. Or, if Travis Ford, who has gone to the post season 3 years in a row, now finds himself with a losing record, despite McD AA players on his team like LeBryan Nash. Or, Johnny Jones, a guy that folks could have had pegged for Trent's job a few weeks ago, who missed the tournament this year. Maybe it really is just expectations are out of whack, or the fans are just not educated about basketball. Maybe a little bit of both.

I get disappointed because not showing up for the SEC tournament is NOT about inconsistency. Here you are--it's do or die--it's just are you a fan or not--do you care or not. Whether LSU had gone 12-0 or 8-4, wouldn't the LSU faithful still gone to the bowl game? Whether it was the Cotton Bowl or Sugar Bowl? Perhaps I'm delusional and a hoops hopeful, but is it too much to ask simply to be basketball fans? Yes, winning is important. But, at some level, the fans just need to be fans. Trent is a good man, a three time COY in three different conferences, and while he somehow is cast as some guy who "can't recruit", the talent on the court IS improving in reality. We have All-SEC players being recognized these last couple of years... it's like basketball reality and LSU fan reality are out of synch.

Perhaps next year, a 20 win season and a NCAA bid brings "consistency" back--I do agree that if Trent recruits well this year and next, that consistency WILL be back. But, it's a co-mingled circle of life--if fans stop being so negative and talking about how bad a coach Trent is, or how bad a recruiter he is, or how bad LSU is--when they aren't, perhaps kids like Ricardo Gathers, or Jarrell Martin WILL want to come. And, if they don't, Trent can still get kids like JOB, or Ralston Turner, or Anthony Hickey come, LSU can be relevant in basketball again.

It starts on Tuesday--and it's still March Madness. Win or lose, I am backing the LSU basketball program! :bball:

 

Couldn't agree with you more. Certainly, LSU fans have a "show me" attitude right now, and despite my hopes for a UK feverish fanbase (which frankly, would go hand in hand in driving revenue, building a program and getting bigger name players), I understand that there's a level of "trust" that has be restored.

I am certainly hoping that recruits (since you bring that up) see through what is frankly a very uneducated LSU basketball fanbase right now, to see what Trent DOES bring. A COY in three conferences, a guy who IS improving the play of kids like Justin Hamilton, Andre Stringer, etc., and a guy that is frankly teaching these boys how to be men. Does a Jarrell Martin want to be developed like a Landry Fields, Casey Jacobsen, Mark Madsen, Kirk Snyder, Marcus Thornton? Does a kid like Norvel Pelle want to become a player like Justin Hamilton, the Lopez wins, the Collins twins, Nick Fazekas, etc? I hope LSU can get these guys despite some of the negativity that seems to have hung over the program this last decade.

I look also for changes in the program, as well. Trent is too smart a guy to not continually look for tweaks to help the squad.

First thing first, win in the NIT. Keep playing and keep having practices to get better. It's a long journey, just hope the fans see it as a journey and not just a race.