(Official) Hoops Post-Season Tourney Watch Thread

Mississippi St falls out of tie for 4th

Although Miss St was fighting for its post season lives, a common theme of not playing up to their potential crept in last night. After having a 13 point halftime lead, Miss St eventually falls to Kentucky at home last night in Starkville.

Now LSU sits with Tennessee and 'Bama as the lone 4th place teams, with Georgia on its mind...

:geauxtige:geaux:

 

Ok. I just want to debate this a little bit.

While I will never say that Trent is necessarily known for his recruiting (although, I've stated in other threads, stack up Trent's NBA players against anyone else in the SEC not named Calipari and Donovan), I want to understand what you think recruiting "well enough" is. If you look at the "LSU BBall Back When" thread, I lay out who Trent has recruited over his 4 years. Are you saying that signing kids like Ralston Turner (top 125 ish, top Alabama player), Andre Stringer (Rivals top 100, and Miss POY), Johnny O'Bryant (McDAA), Anthony Hickey (Mr. Kentucky), a transfer like Justin Hamilton, is not good "enough"? Sure, there have been some calls that were either weren't on Rivals lists (e.g., Ludwig, Isaac, Bass), or recruits that didn't materialize (Dotson, Derenbecker), but overall, are you saying that these kinds of recruits aren't the type of players that LSU would like to have? Another way of asking the question is, if the benchmark is John Brady, as an example, do you think JOB, Hickey or Stringer would have signed with LSU had he been here? LSU hadn't signed a Miss player in the last 4 or 5 years of Brady's time, if my memory serves me. You could maybe argue that Brady had some interesting prospects in the wings,... a J'Mison Morgan or Tommy Mason Griffin, but they were largely coming here on Butch's rep, and well, they didn't exactly pan out at their schools.

Now, if your benchmark is someone like Billy Donovan or John Calipari, then no way is any potential LSU coach (assuming LSU doesn't triple it's coach's salary) going to recruit "well enough". At least certainly right away. I tend to say objectively that Trent has done a decent job (maybe a B to B+ job) recruiting so far. The only reason that this team is a "bubble team" is because it's taken 3 years of recruiting base to get kids like Hickey and O'Bryant into the system. For LSU, the 2010 and 2011 classes were pretty good all things considering. In fact, I think that most will acknowledge that the 2011 class was a very underrated class. Now, 2012 is still out there and it's important to keep this momentum going with this Spring's signings... but you're discounting the fact that with this young team, most of these kids will be here at least one and maybe two more years... they shouldn't be "bubble teams" but improving teams down the road. You're not giving credit to the underlying talent that has come in. So, I think this is a little bit of a unfounded slap at CTJ. He could have done better, but to categorically call his recruiting "at best bubble material" is unfair.

 

Great post. Don't think you will satisfy Izzy, though. He seems to be a "what have you done for me immediately" kind of personality. His comments are all about Rico signing with Baylor, b/c it was very recent, very public, and Rico made comments that have cemented an image for some individuals. They really think that if a 17 y/o jock, who has already switched commitments, says that a coach did not really recruit him hard enough, and did not attend his games, is actually true and accurate. They don't consider the fact that multiple credible individuals have validated the opposite, and don't consider that Rico just never really wanted to come to LSU in the first place. Nor do they take a look back, as you have here, and really look at who CTJ has recruited, and what his overall objective is, to recruit quality players that compliment one another's abilities, develop some depth, and build a team not made up of "one and doners."

A great example to contradict the Izzy mentality is John Wall. As I am sure everyone here knows, John Wall was the #1 recruit out of HS a few years back. He grew up in Raleigh, 20 minutes from both UNC and Duke. But, he did not sign with either in-state schools with top basketball programs and top basketball pedigree's. Instead, he went to Kentucky for 1 year, then the NBA. So, I suppose you could say Coach Williams and Coach K can't even recruit their in-state top talent. Can you build a program on guys like John Wall where they are only with you for 1 year? Absolutely not. Rico will not likely be a one and doner, but just b/c he did not choose LSU, does not in any way indicate that CTJ can't recruit. It was about timing and outside interest in Rico's case. If he were coming out of HS in 2-3 years, and LSU's program were a little further along, then he may have considered it more seriously. But, he wasn't coming to LSU right now no matter how many games CTJ himself attended, plain and simple. Get over it, move on, show some patience and support the team and coach. We are getting better. Years 5-7 will be the true indicator about turning point of the team, imo.

 

For me Trent's recruiting has been about the best you could hope for considering the lack of major D-I talent the state has produced in the last few years.

A lot of folks will knock Trent for not signing Langston Galloway, Brian Williams, and Markel Brown, but when you consider who Trent signed that year, I'm not sure you would trade any of our signees for the guys I mentioned based on evaluations out of high school. Though you could argue in hindsite any of the three would have been better than Derenbecker.

 

Yeah, and the other guy was Pressey. Not sure Hickey comes if Pressey does, though. There was also the JUCO guy last year that we came down to the wire with, too (his name escapes me). With only a certain number of slots, and specific needs, you are not going to get them all. I like our team right now, and we are pretty young. Good bunch to build on. We should do nothing but get better from here on out.

 

Yup, you're referring to Dylan Talley, from Blinn JC, who signed with Nebraska, and Sam Grooms, who signed with Oklahoma. While folks were hard on Trent for letting those guys go elsewhere, he signed Hickey. Look at all of their stats (as I did briefly on another recruiting thread), and you'll see we're much better off with a younger, and just as if not more effective, point guard. Shouldn't we give Trent kudos for this call?

I think the real frustration underlying all of this, I think, is that (a) more LA LSU fans want to see LA kids being signed, and (b) LSU fans want immediate results--more flash, more stars, higher ranked recruits. They equate that top 5 class in football as what should be the "the norm" for basketball. I think hoops recruiting is just different. It's very subjective, and team principles, system and philosophy (in addition to just the school itself and where it sits in the hoops landscape) and how those kids fit that scheme are even more an emphasis. Sure, folks can say that LSU should have signed Galloway, Brown or Williams, but then when those guys flop (or like Ludwig, don't score 10 points and get 8 rebounds a game) they're also the first ones to say, why aren't we recruiting nationally? One the big knocks against Brady was that he couldn't recruit beyond a 50 mile radius of Baton Rouge, and now you've got Trent who's pulled in recruits from WA, MS, AL, KY and Iowa, and he's not a good recruiter?

It just make no sense--and really at the end of the day, they're just gripers or folks that never really liked Trent to begin with. Let's just be fair, LSU DID give offers to Williams, Galloway, Felix--they ultimately also chose not to come to LSU. Why aren't they getting lambasted for not having some state pride and signing with the home team school--in the end they had the opportunity to come to LSU and compete. They also could have committed early like John Isaac and Malik Morgan did just to commit to rebuilding LSU's team. We can certainly name kids that Trent's whiffed on (Cousins, Noel Johnson, are other big names), but frankly, what coach doesn't whiff on a few prospects?

Now, I'd say in 2012 and beyond, the recruiting question for LA prospects is a much different ask. If Trent keeps this momentum rolling in the right direction, LSU won't be a rebuilding situation any more. LSU will be a top 3-5 program in the SEC like it should be. Recruits that want to stay in LA, or come to a premier conference, play for a proven coach that will get the best out of you (and that is directed to Ricardo Gathers), get you an education all while having a good time in Baton Rouge, and hard work permitting, will get you into the NBA, will start to take LSU seriously. Recruiting should improve in LA as the "boat rises" with the tide.

 

You make an excellent point that recruiting is just a different beast in basketball than it is in football. Take Butler, Xavier and several other mid majors who have recruited 3 star players or below and coached them up, integrated them into their program and have made deep runs into the tournament with Senior and Junior laden teams. IMO by the time that 3 star player has 3-4 years experience and coaching, he is equal to that 5 star freshman who will only be around a year or so. I think this is the kind of mentality that Trent has when it comes to recruiting: he is looking for players who fit the mold of what he envisions for LSU basketball. I also like the fact that the kids he has recruited seem to be high character guys who represent the school well.

I agree that years 5-7 are the really telling years. Trent has put the program back on solid footing and soon enough I believe he will have built something that we can all be proud of year in and year out. GEAUX TIGERS!

 

Not to complete hijack this thread and make it into a Trent Johnson recruiting review, let me bring it back to the post season hunt.

Florida handles Auburn last night, but not without a cost. UF loses their primary rebounder, probably for the season.

Auburn Tigers vs. Florida Gators - Recap - February 21, 2012 - ESPN

The interesting talk right now seems to be where does LSU really end up in the SEC Tournament seeding. Not that it's likely, but a 3 seed (if 8-4 Vanderbilt falls late--they still have to play USC and UF at home, and UK and Tenn on road) isn't out of the realm of possibility. And, if so, LSU as a third seed might get to play Florida (#2) instead of UK in the tournament. Something to watch, b/c given that LSU actually played UF relatively close until late, this kind of injury is a big deal. Frankly, it's a big deal for Florida who still has to play Vandy and UK in the season...

 

All I really wanted out of this season was signs of life and finishing around the middle of the SEC pack, and that appears to be exactly what they're poised to do after finally gaining some confidence and momentum. Let's just hope they finish the home stretch strong and make at least some noise in the SEC tourny.

 

Couldn't agree with you more. Trent has been open about the type of "mid-major" philosophy (frankly, this was just the "old school" philosophy before the NBA draft plucked freshman and sophomores out of college with regularity) he lives by. Absolutely--a Justin Hamilton, a 4th year Junior, is naturally going to be better than most freshmen big men. He's also going to show that hard work with good fundamental coaching leads to being a NBA player. Hence, it's taken a little while to see how guys like Hamilton, Bass, or White, can really contribute within Trent's program. Likewise, imagine Turner, Courtney, Stringer another year from now or two years from now. Experience, physical maturity and skill development DOES make a difference.

That said, the interesting recruiting question for ME, is at what "breaking" point for quality of recruit does Trent appeal to? A top 10 kid wants UK, because he wants to play for a year and get drafted--he's a lottery pick today and he'll be so in a year. Calipari is the undisputed coach to get you that scenario--even more so than Roy Williams or Mike K. BUT, Calipari doesn't want to waste his time coaching up a top 100 recruit. On the flipside, you can see even now that Roy Williams, Bill Self at Kansas and Rick Barnes at Texas, are gravitating back down to that top 25-75 player as opposed to the top 10 player, because they realize that focusing only on 1 and doners isn't going to give your program consistency. Now ideally, you'd mix in that 1 and doner with a few other top 100 recruits who stay longer, to help balance out the recruiting. Only in the UK case can you find a team largely made up of freshman playing at such a high level.

That brings us to LSU and Trent. Will the typical top 10-25 player buy into Trent's philosophies and systems? When that LA player, like Victor Craig, comes around will he default to a program like UK or LSU? Now, since Trent got here, there's been no legitimate top 25 player in LA. But, Ricardo Gathers would like to think he is. That's why he was pimping himself out to Duke, UK and others. Ultimately, he felt like Baylor was a better place for him because that's where other "top" kids were going--that was also his appeal with St. Johns, before their class imploded. But, a kid like Malik Morgan, or John Isaac, doesn't view himself as a 1 and doner--he's humble and realistic about how much work he has to put in to get to the L and well, maybe he wants a college degree. Trent is always going to gravitate to these kinds of kids--as he probably should. Trent was able to recruit that top 40-50 guy in Johnny O'Bryant--so he can get a little bit better recruit than Butler (note that the 2011 class was "just" a top 50 kid, and a top 150 kid in Isaac, and a Mr. Kentucky in Hickey, who wasn't really even tracked by Rivals). I personally think that in Trent's system, he can certainly do well with a top 50 kid, a top 100 kid and maybe another prospect that may be a little more long term prospect with undiscovered talent or upside. If he gets that kind of class consistently, he's going to have LSU be sort of in that Vanderbilt sort of mold in the SEC... and that's nothing to sneeze at. Now, if he can convince that top 20 kid to join LSU, like a Victor Craig or a Devonta Pollard, for example, LSU's likely going to take a quantum leap forward even from there. But, we're not going to see that possibilty in LA until 2014, when potentially Victor Craig could be a McD AA kind of recruit.

Jarrell Martin is another very good test case. He's anywhere from a top 40 to top 70 sort of kid. He's a 4 star. Will he set off a domino affect of choosing LSU and recruiting in other top 100 kids? Or will he, like Gathers, chase the UKs of the world? A lot of Trent's recruitng is frankly just finding a kid with the right mindset for his program. That said, I'm optimistic about the 2012 signing period and the 2013 recruiting season. Martin could be a big LA name along with several other quality recruits that buy into what Trent's building. If the LSU fans support Trent, stop the in-fighting and pack the PMAC, we're very close to being there.