again, i think we are assuming alot to say that the only kind of life than can survive is the sort of life we have. if the earth was completely different, and could not support the sort of life it has, who is to say it wouldnt be populated with a life form that thrives in environments we could never exist in. so there may be extremely slim odds of an environment that can support (earthly) life existing. even so, the question of rarity of intelligent life doesnt have much to do with god, and even less to do with jesus. as far as your comparison between the history of the universe and genesis, it already sounds ridiculous. physicists will tell us that all the matter and energy in the universe already existed for big bang. nothing was created during big bang, it just expanded, and continues to expand now. there was no 7 steps of creation. god waited until the third day to create light. but the big bang involved the expansion of all the matter and energry in the universe, including light. i realize the big bang is only a thery on the beginnings of the universe, but it is a theory that you would have to seriously manipulate if you want it to jibe with genesis. much like you might revise history to make nostradamus seem correct. as far as the earth is concerned, of course simpler organisms and plants developed before complex creatures like humans, i dont think it is very smart of genesis to figure that out.
I've kinda looked over this thread and for those that don't believe in christianity explain to me a few questions. 1 they found Noahs ark on Mt Arat in Turkey 2 they found the ark of the covenant 3 there is proof to back up alot of stories in the old testament ------------------------------------------------------------------------- As far as evolution is concerned....... 1 Humans are complex creatures with DNA and other advanced features, I would like to know how evolution was able to design us. 2 As far as scientists and physicists are concerned... 1 Things are ever changing, one week their right the next their wrong, Examples... One week hot dog die is bad for you, the next its not. How many items can you list like this? 2 I can't recall any specific information but through the years i think we've all heard about when there has been something that was misdated by Scientists such as... I know I heard that they got the age of either the earth or the sun wrong and found out that one of these were actually younger than they thought I was watching a program a few years back where they tested some remains of Noah's arc and it was exactly the size of what it says in the bible, made of same material. It was also tested for its age and fit the same time period as described specifically. Can a non-believer prove me wrong??? BTW, i will try and blow up some things and see if I can make something perfectly round like the planets are but chances are it aint going to happen :shock:
i am too sleepy to address all of this, i will just take care of your mistake about planets: very large objects, like planets, have so much gravity that they naturally form spheres http://www.pa.msu.edu/~sciencet/ask_st/031198.html
Sourdough, I'm as firm a Christian as anybody, but the fact is; 1) They don't know exactly WHAT they found at Mt. Ararat in Turkey. Yes, wood that appeared to be part of a ship was found up there, and yes, it's weird that wood planks for shipbuilding would be found on top of a mountain, but no intact ark was found; it's nothing more than a few rotted planks. Also, another archaeologist claims he has found the true final resting place of Noah's Ark several miles away from the mountain. Remember, the Bible says the Ark came to rest "in the mountains of Ararat," not specifically on Mt. Ararat itself. 2) The Ark of the Covenant has NOT, I repeat, has NOT officially been found. Some guy claims to have found it awhile back and just left it where it lay "because God told him it was not time to reveal the Ark to His people" (and I guess it would take the voice of God to make him walk away from the biggest archaeological and theological discovery of all time) but this guy has been challenged repeatedly to put his money where his mouth is and has yet to deliver. Archaeologists since the Middle Ages have devoted their lives to finding the AoC, and some people think we might be close, that's it's either somewhere in Iraq or Syria, Sudan, or underneath Jerusalem. But so far, nothing to report. 3) Most of the New Testament, save for some of Jesus' more powerful miracles, and of course, the Book of Revelation, has been proven and is universally accepted as historical fact, even by the most bitter, militant atheists. BUT, the Old Testament is kinda tenuous. We can confirm the lineage of Jewish kings, and the wars against Israel by Egypt, Philistia, Assyria, and Babylon, and the split between Israel and Judah, and the existence of the major prophets. Other than that, the Old Testament has little corroboration and support. And, predictably, anti-Bible folks do not accept the Old Testament alone as a faithful retelling of historical events; they must have an independent, "secular" document that can vouch for it. Most archaeologists and Biblical scholars, Christian and non-Christian, however, are willing to believe in the historical parts of the Old Testament simply because most of it's books are so well-written and comprehensive. For example, the book of Job. While there is no other evidence to say that Job really existed, the names of real places and events described in the book that we do know really existed/occurred and it's beautiful and comprehensive writing is enough to convince many scholars that there was indeed a man named Job, who was faithful to God despite severe personal hardships, and that his story became legend because it was such a great example of how to be a true man of God. How much of Job is true can be debated, because, like the Greek epics of Homer, centuries passed with the story being told by word of mouth before it occurred to some bright soul (or he was moved by the Holy Spirit) to write Job's legend down on paper. We don't know how many details got fudged or embellished in all that time by all those different storytellers. But I'd be willing to bet, and not just because of my beliefs, that they got most of it, or at least the important parts, down right. Bottom line, I can't prove to martin that atheism is bunch of crapola and that Christianity is true by his, or any, standard. However, martin cannot prove to ME that Christianity and the Bible are a bunch of crapola and that God just does not exist. I like to think that I know there is a Supreme Being, namely the God Jehovah of the Holy Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and I look at the wonderful, complex universe we have and have a hard time attributing it's wonderful, perfectly attuned natural balance to random chance, but you must separate science from theology. And martin is looking for theology and the existence of God to be proved through the scientific method. He asks the impossible. In the same way, I ask for the impossible when I ask for science to fully explain the origins of the universe, the purpose of humankind, and why our natural universe is designed the way it is. Science can only explain the mechanics of how the Earth and all things in it came to be, and it does a pretty poor job of that even. They can barely explain the how, much less the why. Those who think science holds all the answers and try to use it to shoot down all theology are, in the words of Diogenes Allen, "simply uncomfortable living in a world that they have not created." Neither one of us will ever be able to convince the other that we are right and they are wrong, and neither of us will know the absolute truth on this matter until we die. I will tell you this though, and if it makes it look like my faith is just a crutch I use to make me feel better (which it's not) than so be it; the thought that there is NOTHING more to the universe and our existence than, on average, 75 years of a grim, bitter struggle for survival in a hostile world full of hostile, selfish people and then, when you die, it's like going to sleep, without dreams, for eternity, well, that thought's just pretty dang depressing. What a terrifying, horrible experience death must be for an atheist, for them to think that that really is the end and that there is nothing more to it. For many reasons, not the least of which, my own sanity and peace of mind, I simply cannot believe that this (referring to life on Earth) is "it." There MUST be something more. A whole wide universe, infinite dimensions, beings and existential forms beyond our comprehension. It's out there, even if it doesn't take the form of God and angels and Heaven that's discussed so much in the Bible and other Christian documents. You can't tell me it's not, any more than you can tell me places on the other side of the Earth that I've never been to and never seen before, or planets out on the rim of our solar system that no one has seen with their own eyes, except through powerful telescopes, aren't there. No one can prove with absolute 100% certainty that God, angels, Heaven, and higher plains of existence are possible. No one can prove with absolute 100% certainty that they are impossible either. No one can say what lies beyond. We can only believe what we will and face it as best we can.
i agree with almost all of that, except for few things. while i am no historian, and i don't even really care if a historical jesus existed, i think i have heard considerable debate from historians on the question. i do not think the "bitter militant atheists" accept jesus' existestence as a historical fact. i think it is sort of irrelevant, and things like that are so hard to know for sure. at the end of the day though, as everyone knows, it is a matter of faith. and you cannot force yourself to believe something just because it comforts you, or at least i cannot. i can try all day to convince myself, but the idea of christianity seems so stupid i can't stand it. and of course those of us who are christian, we can realize that we christian through accident of birth, because we are born to christian families who indoctrinate us. it is almost certain we would be islamic if we were born in an islamic country to islamic parents, or jewish if we were born to jewish parents. and this would change everything we believe! so by random birth chance our views on the true nature of the universe are decided! absurd. this is the first thing i thought of that planted the seeds of anti-religion in my head when i was about 13. of course. and given those facts, you cant prove much. a logic professor might refer to this as "appeal to ignorance." or an argument for something based on lack of evidence against it. all we really know is that we dont know. to me, the more specifically you make claims about something you cannot possibly know, the more it indicates you are uncomforable with the lack of knowledge and are willing to believe something that comforts you. yes, that is true. it sucks for me. i dread getting older. my mortality really pisses me off. i believe that when i die, i am done. but that doesnt make it easy for me to substitute a comforting lie into my brain. but even with my mortality staring me in the face, i manage to enjoy life as much as anyone i have met. it sucks terribly, but again, just becuse it sucks, that doesnt make magic any more true. "something" is a pretty broad term. there definitely is a huge universe out there, and i suppose it is possible that there is some sort of creator, and like you say, it may not be the god and angels like in the bible. but why would you choose to believe it as fact all the very specific dogma of any particular religion? why make up specifics when we have none? especially when the specifics of religion are so self contradictory. i think it is silly to compare the currently unknowable to the known and well documented. but, it always boils down to this. religion is a matter of faith in the wildly irrational. some people have faith, i do not. it baffles me that people so obviously smarter than i am have faith, but i cannot reconcile it. if the world made sense to me, everyone would see how obviously foolish their superstitions are. "Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - thomas jefferson
my view..... As complex as the human brain is and the billions of things it can process a second....I feel something more complex had to create it which, in my logical mind supports my belief in God and higher beings. For the record, I am Catholic as many in this part of the state are but I don't believe in God because of my birth location....just possibly my religion which dictates it. Astronomer Sir Frederick had proposed something based on amino acids forming with a human cell and the ridiculous math for such to happen ....he demonstratred the probability of with the following analogy. "What are the chances that a tornado might blow through a junkyard containing all the parts of a 747, accidentally assemble them into a plane, and leave it ready for take-off? The possibilities are so small as to be negligible even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole universe." beyond that with earth being the exact distance from the sun, the moon, the atmosphere, tides, climate all have to be perfect for life to exist. To think all this happened by random events is well, more absurd to my logical mind than believing otherwise. So, basing that with my religion/faith/belief in God then that is how everything comes full circle for me. Its not something I make up to comfort myself since it can be even more fearful in many ways. I have many specific things that occur in my life that have substantiated each and every belief I have yet I am not here to have anyone see things my way....its just how i see it.
Which, of course, is why you need to read the book. With regard to what happened at the big bang, no physicist that I have ever heard would claim to hav any idea what the hell was or was not before the big bang. My understanding is that the theory is basically that the universe(s) were all in a black-hole type singularity. In that situation, all the 'rules' break down and there's no telling what was going on. As far as the light thing goes, I think it was created on the first day. While I can't rehash the entire book, the basic explanation is this: At the time of the big bang, there was essentially only energy. Matter only came into existence when the expansion of everything slowed down enough for said energy to 'cool off' and become matter. Before there was matter, there was no light. At the point of 'quark confinement' - i.e. when the universe cooled off enough to let matter form, with sub atomic paricles ultimately joining together into atoms and bonding into molecules, - light literally separated from darkness.
Hey MT, I for one don't read any particular hostility in anybodys replies. I know for sure there isn't any in mine, at least not intended. Martin has some sarcasm but then we expect that of him and I don't mind. I hope no one is being hostile and everyone is respective of each others views. martin, in answer to your comment about the robot and free will, no it would NOT be your fault if you gave the robot freedom of choice and he came to my house and stole my bicycle because if you had given him a system of values and rules and by ITS CHOICE decided to break them, it is responsible for its own actions just as your child or anyone else is responsible for their actions when they break the rules. I know you don't believe in Jesus and I am not trying to preach when I say this but He tells us repeatedly in the first four books of the NT that we are born into this world pure and innocent, free of sin. Of course that conflicts with the Catholic teaching of Original Sin which rickyd and I debated. We are all born with the NATURE to sin in that we want what feels good to us and what will satisfy our desires and that is not always good for us. We may want a lot of money but our conscience tells us not to rob a bank. Our nature is to take the easy way. We may find the neighbors wife sexy as hell but our conscience says "No, you can't have her." If we, knowing these things are wrong, CHOOSE to do them anyway, then it is not God's fault just because He made us with those desires. It's up to us to control them. This is one of the great atheist arguments. "If God made me, how can I be held accountable for my actions?" This nonaccountability allows you to be the boss of your own life and think you have no one to answer to. "It's okay as long as I don't get caught." If God had created us as robots with no freedom to choose, there would be no need for laws or rules. There would be no wars or murder or theft or any of the other things that result from our (mis)actions because we would all be perfect. And then you would be right that Jesus and His death and resurrection was a lie because there would have been no need for Him. We would all go through life like automatons, behaving ourselves, treating each other with courtesy and respect and love, doing everything just as we were supposed to. And as strange as it may sound, even though that gift of free will may in fact lead to eternal damnation ( as believers believe) to many people, it is still one of the greatest gifts that God has bestowed on us. As I told rickyd and I am sure many others can attest, when you accept the gift of salvation your life changes DRAMATICALLY! It is almost a physical, for sure a mental, transformation. I am not trying to convert you nor am I trying to belittle your beliefs. Your (un)willingness to CHOOSE what to believe or not is a manifestation of the gift of free will. What you choose to believe or not is SOLELY YOUR DECISION. In my belief, I choose to believe that God has put forth a plan and a solution and He has given me (and everyone else) the choice to accept it or not. I choose to accept it, you do not. That's okay. And like someone else said, we won't know for certain which side is correct until we die. If you're correct, it won't really matter will it? But what if we who believe are? And if everyone will go back and read my original post, I said that I don't have a problem with evolution and creationism existing side by side. I think the creation of the universe is a mixture of both. I personally think these people who take the Bible literally on the creation of the world and think the universe and the world is only a few thousand years old just don't live in a state of reality. As JetStorm pointed out, the OT is historically verifiable back to a certain point. Beyond that, I personally believe much of it is symbolic just as many of Jesus' parables were symbolic, written by men in a way we could understand. I also believe that Adam and Eve was the beginning of the lineage of Jesus Christ, as documented, and as the Jews were chosen to bring Gods word and laws into the world, they were chosen to demonstrate mans penchant for sin. After all, do we not to this day continue to do what they are supposed to have done? That is strive to live forever and be on an everlasting search for knowledge and technology? Not accepting what God gave us but wanting more. Do we not play God in genetics? Abortion? Are we not selfish beings? When we look really down deep at ourselves do we not find ourselves sorely lacking in what we think God wants for us? That is if we are believers. My apologies to anyone if you read any hostility or an attempt to "convert" anyone to my way of thinking. I assure you there is none and I am not.
