i was readin some more of my second favorite writer today, (Twain is the first), HL Mencken, and i came across a quote that was amazingly close to what i was joking about on this thread a few days ago: " It is often argued that religion is valuable because it makes men good, but even if this were true it would not be a proof that religion is true. That would be an extension of pragmatism beyond endurance. Santa Claus makes children good in precisely the same way, and yet no one would argue seriously that the fact proves his existence. The defense of religion is full of such logical imbecilities. The theologians, taking one with another, are adept logicians, but every now and then they have to resort to sophistries so obvious that their whole case takes on an air of the ridiculous. Even the most logical religion starts out with patently false assumptions. It is often argued in support of this or that one that men are so devoted to it that they are willing to die for it. That, of course, is as silly as the Santa Claus proof. Other men are just as devoted to manifestly false religions, and just as willing to die for them. Every theologian spends a large part of his time and energy trying to prove that religions for which multitudes of honest men have fought and died are false, wicked, and against God..... ...One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected. ...[This] convention protects them, and so they proceed with their blather unwhipped and almost unmolested, to the great damage of common sense and common decency. that they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly. Nor is there any visible intellectual dignity in theologians. Few of them know anything that is worth knowing, and not many of them are even honest." - HL Mencken if only i could write so smoothly, i would have convinced you all to be soulless degenerates like me weeks ago.
Well you see ole buddy, the problem with all of that is no one's ever SEEN Santa Claus and the fact we as parents buy the presents at a real store and then put them under a tree and we humans do the things associated with Jolly Old St. Nick PROVES that he doesn't exist. Whereas with Jesus, He is a historical fact! He lived, He died and He rose from the dead. Now you cannot dispute those first two facts but you as a nonbeliever will certainly dispute the last. But just as people saw Him and lived with Him and talked with Him when He was alive, so did many of these same people see Him risen after he died. This too is historical fact. The tomb was sealed and guarded by Roman soldiers at the request of the Jewish leaders to prevent the disciples from coming to get the body. A Roman soldier proclaimed Jesus to be dead. If the disciples had stolen the body, then they would have been admitting their faith was meaningless. If the Jewish authorities ahd removed the body, they would have produced it to prove the rumors of His resurrection untrue. The Jews for centuries have denied this last fact. But even the Jews do not deny His existence. For what reason would the people who say that they saw the Risen Jesus say these things if it were not true? For political power? None was given to them. In fact many were persecuted and executed savagely. Andrew was skinned alive in Asia. Peter was crucified upside down. Many Christians went to their deaths being torn apart and eaten alive by wild animals for entertainment. But none denounced their belief in the Risen Christ when that would have been all that was necessary to save them. Also what Mencken says about "making men good" does not hold water either when it comes to Christianity. A Christian does not become Christian by being "good", one becomes "good" by being a Christian. As I have stated before there are many people who procalim to be Christian that are not, that continue to live as they always have but proclaim to believe in God and Jesus. A true Christian knows that he can never attain salvation by his good deeds or thoughts or prayers or in any way on his own. He knows that only by receiving the gift of Jesus' death and resurrection can He attain salvation and subsequently his life changes, so that he is inclined to do "good". The Bible is very specific about this in Romans 3:9-31. But because you do not believe and will not take the time to read it, you will never know Romans 1:18-32 and 2:1-16 specifically deals with non-believers. And the only way you'll ever make me into a "souless degenerate like (you) is to prove to me without an absolute shadow of a doubt of the non existence of God, the same way I'll ever turn you into a born again God fearing Christian by proving without an absolute shadow of a doubt He does. I cannot do that but He can and hopefully He will some day before it's too late for you. Some other Menckenism's: "The American people, taking one with another, constitute the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers ever gathered under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages." "There's no underestimating the intelligence of the American people." (It is good for us that the people are so stupid". Adolph Hitler) "Democracy is the art of running the circus from the monkey cage." "In this world of sin and sorow, there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." (Amen brother! Even though he was a Democrat, he hated Roosevelt) "Democracy is grounded upon so childish a complex of fallacies that they must be protected by a rigid system of taboos, else even halfwits would argue it to pieces. Its first concern must be to penalize the free play of ideas." (Sounds as if he thought about as much of democracy as he did of religion!) And Mencken was not an atheist. He did believe in God. What he railed against was the bastardization of Christianity, not Christ.
well, it doesnt really matter, but mencken didnt rail against the bastardization of christianity in the sense that that implies it ever existed in a worthwhile state. mencken rejects belief in the supernatural as founded on nothing. and you say he believed in god, but that is incorrect. he, like me, doesnt deny the existence of god, but makes no claims about his existence either. i have never said there was no god. how could i know that? and i will believe in santa until you prove he doesnt exist. and when you claim you proved it, i will claim he was just invisible, or taking a day off, or not apparent to you because you don't have faith. to me it seems asinine to believe something until it is proved wrong. i say god is a big green whale who lives on a part of pluto that can't be seen by our telescopes. you cant prove that isnt true? ok i will base my life on it then. i am no historian, but my guess is jesus did exist. some historians argue he didnt. i don't profess to know. so some people would dispute the "fact" that jesus existed. i wouldnt call it a "fact" that he existed. your other mencken quotes are mostly irrelevant, but it should be remembered that mencken was employed as a social critic, and it was his job to point out foolishness, even in democracy and americans. why do people say they were abducted by UFOs? why do false stories spread everywhere like wildfire? why do internet hoaxes and false email forwards proliferate? how come almost every story i have ever heard was embellished? how come billions of people are believers in religions that are directly opposed to yours and deny that jesus was the son of god? why would they beleve this if, according to you, it isnt true? people like you are perfect examples of how intelligent people will sometimes take their brain out of their skull and mindlessly believe what they are told, fo no real reason other than brainwashing and their wanting it to be true.
And just when I was beginning to like you , martin, you have to go and get personal! Oh well, ugly is as ugly does!
why is everyone so sensitive all the time. i love the christians of the world. i also like to help them understand that they believe in fairy tales and explain to them that they were probably brainwashed or guilted into believing them as children. or that wanting something to be true doesnt make it true. people are so sensitive about it. even after i repeat a billion times that perfectly respectable and intelligent people are the ones i am talkin about. am i not allowed to point out the obvious fact that people are brainwashed? i mean christians think that muslims are brainwashed with unfortunate views, right?but i cant say what i think without it being taken personally?
I didn't say that! LOL, I was just joking on the other post about starting an argument with myself although i think it would make a great little skit in a comedy!
My dear friend, you are perfectly welcome to express your views any time or place you desire. But when you say something like "People like you", it makes it a personal thing. I'm not offended so don't worry about it. I would suggest you read your first sentence. Lighten up. Don't be like the people who can dish it out but can't take it, ok? Remarks like I make are purely in jest. If I wanted to be ugly, you would know it because the tone of my replies would be totally different. I can be, if I want to, VERY un-Christian. But I like to think and act that I am past that now. So, go get a cold one and relax. And btw, I don't think you have ever given us any proof that what I and other Christians believe is a "fairy tale" or "brainwashed beliefs" as you call them. I think I and others have given substantial proof of our beliefs. You have certainly given your opinions, and most vehemently at that, but no proof. I liken your stance to that of those who dispute the Holocaust. Many people witnessed it, lived it and in spite of all the proof, which is no more to those of us who didn't witness it first hand than the Bible and subsequent faith in the word of others, there are still people who vehemently deny it ever happened , that it is a fabrication by the Jews. Photographs don't prove it. Those photos and film clips could be of isolated incidents. All we have is the word of those who lived it, written down or spoken. Same as with the life and death and resurrection of Jesus. Thousands saw HIm, heard Him teach, lived with Him, saw Him crucified, buried and then after He rose from the dead. Others saw Him lifted into Heaven. Yet you call these people liars. You don't find it hard to believe in the worst of man based on the word of others but yet you find it hard to believe that someone could love you so much that He would sacrifice His life for your immortal soul based on that same proof. Why do you believe in the Big Bang? Were you there to see it? How about all of the other things in history you never witnessed first hand? All you have is someones word. You like to proclaim that "I don't deny the existence of God, I just don't know." Yet at the same time you describe my beliefs as a "fairy tale." Personally, I don't know of ANY fairy tales that are true, do you? Fairy tales are generally accepted the same way fables are, as entertainment and a way to teach children moral values. Everyone past a certain age knows animals can't talk, build brick houses and so on. So the question begs to be asked, "How can religious beliefs even compare with fairy tales and fables?" You either believe or you don't. There is no middle ground. You can't ride the rail and say, "Just in case there is a God, I'll act in a certain way or hold to a certain belief." Because by doing so you admit that God exists. And if He exists, then He has laid out a certain set of rules for us to follow. The only other choice we have is to totally deny His existence. Then we live the typical atheist life of just doing what comes naturally and whatever feels good without worrying about the possible consequences. So which is it, my friend? Fairy tale or truth? Do I know for certain the exact way the Earth and universe came about? Does it even matter if I do? No, But I do know that there is an all powerful God who put it all there, according to His plan. Of that I have no doubt. I also know, by faith and historical proof,that Jesus lived, died for my sins and rose again and that through Him I will have eternal life. Of that I have no doubt as well. By your own admission, you're not sure of anything.
you proved that jesus died for your sins and the rest? you gave "substantial proof?". thats insanity. yunno your faith in the irrational dosent count as proof. and again, i am aware that i have not proven your views false. it is extraordinarily hard to prove something is not true. it is simple to prove something does exist, you just show the thing, and there is it. but with proving negatives you have to account for every place and possibility, you just cant do it. like if i said there is a purple monster that exists secretly in every place that humans are not currently looking at. you surely cant prove that wrong. in fact i think you should worship the purple monster. of course! that is why the big bang is considered a "theory"! and not fact! its just a way of explaining the origin of the universe that makes sense given our current scientific knowledge. i would not care at all if the scientific community reversed it. i have nothing invested in it. unlike you, i am not invested in any beliefs that may not be right. i am not so terrified of ignorance. i can accept lack of knowledge without dreaming up a santa-like figure to reward me for being a sweetie and punishing the bad children with fiery-town. big bad scary fire-town! i may as well join the flat earth society if i am going to believe stuff for no reason. and you talk as if there are not billions of others like me. why cant i make the same logic against you? billions and billions of non-christians, and you refuse to listen to them, that jesus is not the savior. you just don't listen. it just isnt relevant to me how many poeple believe a superstition. enough people are scared of the number 13 that my 25 story apartment tower doesnt have a 13th floor. it is beyond stupid. people will believe what they are told, even if it is obvious nonsene. you need to realize that "faith" is not an acceptable reason to "know" something. you can want something to be true, have faith in it until you are green and it means nothing. i want you to understand the lack of a connection between what happens in your brain and what is true. your faith in something is completely independent of what is true. i am glad, i dont want to offend. when i said "people like you", i meant people with intelligence. people who have faith that i cant write off as the product of being an idiot. my aim is to make you question your incredibly irrational and moronic beliefs, and see them as the impossibly stupid fables they are. i have had discussions like this before, and i know how they end. we agree that to believe the fairy tales, you have to have "faith". that essentially means you have to be irrational so it won't hurt your feelings to accept the meaninglessness of life.
that is funny. one of many pretty entertaining nuggets in this old thread. as a whole, this thread makes a great read.
