New Arizona Immigration Enforcement Laws

Carrying "papers" is just too fascist for me. Would it help tag illegals? Perhaps, but the unintended consequences to the average American's freedom cannot be ignored. Lots of potential harm here and I have given up plenty of my freedom all ready for the greater good.

IMO, it's not a good bill, but will serve it's real purpose. To make whoever is in charge of the federal govt(now dems) to take an unpopular stand(with legal Latinos :huh, and seal up the border. If that takes the army or national guard, so be it. Prosecution of businesses hiring, creation of a legal Mexican worker program - whatever. Bring it, but don't put further requirements on law abiding people which will just increase costs, bureaucracy, and shift the burden to me. Protecting our borders is one of the primary functions of the federal govt. If congress tackled this with the same gusto with which they grab $, we would have zero problems.

All I have seen any president in my lifetime do is give it lip service. Maybe this will force the fed's hand to enforce the laws that are on the books.

 

Nah. I love freedom.

 

So do I, but I like it a whole lot better in English:grin:

 

Naive? I think it is naive to ignore thousands of years of poor people migrating to rich countries. I think it is naive to ignore the physical risks that these people are willing to take to get here and the creativity that can be employed. I think it is arrogant to think that these millennial tides can be stopped by brute force, even though we can't even keep drugs out of prisons. And I think it is foolish to equate poor illegal immigrants seeking better lives with terrorists.

For the most part, I think the hard core libertarian is a dangerous crazy who should create, live in, and govern a libertarian utopian community before they try to impose their crazier ideas on society. Nonetheless, libertarians have some very important things to say about human greed and self-interest and how to exploit that nature in creating effective policy. If you want to "solve" this problem, you have to change the economics to work in your favor, or at least to provide less incentive.

I am not advocating a completely open border; I'm advocating a rational approach to our security issues. Yes, 90+% of our illegals come through our southern border and 90% of our border security is expended there, but this only makes sense from a security point of view if you equate illegal immigration with terrorism or security in general. Illegal immigrants may cause social problems, but they are not a threat to the security of the US. As I pointed out before, illegal immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than our own citizens. Why should we be committing security resources commensurate with the illegals' numbers when there is an alternative approach (go after the employers) to dealing with them?

But we need to do both, will be the cry! Why? Trying to keep them out and deporting them has never worked. Why don't we try the alternative instead of throwing more good money after bad. Of course everyone gives the perfunctory "we should go after the employers too" bit, but it's kind of like this:

WE NEED TO STOP EVIL CRIMINAL ILLEGALS AND
we should go after the employers too, but
REMEMBER THEY TAKE OUR TAX DOLLARS FOR MEDICAL CARE AND TO EDUCATE THEIR CHILDREN

I'm not saying that illegals aren't overwhelming border states. However, unless we severely punish the employers (financially...I don't want to put them in jail), we aren't really servious about illegal immigration;. Until people feel as passionate about the fine print as they do the large, the politicians will continue to give us the feel good, but ultimately ineffective result we deserve.

But back to security. You say the terrorists are going to come in through our southern border because that's where the drugs come in. Obviously, you see the drugs as evidence that our southern border must be the path of least resistance. I say that drugs come through our southern border because that's where the drugs are. That's where they're made and logistically it's cheaper to ship them that way. If you manage to completely close the border, it will cost more, but they will go around.

Likewise, terrorists will likely come from Canada because that is where they are. Canada is an open cosmopolitan country. For years they have had very liberal immigration policies. Pretty much all you had to say was that you were some kind of human rights fugitive and they would grant you asylum. No one noticed until after 9/11, but Canada has more terrorist organization presence than any country on the planet except maybe the US. Which way will they come?

Since 90% of resources are spent on our southern border, that means we only have 10% for a border that is more than 2.5 times as long and probably has even more sparsely populated territory. In 2007 the GAO ran one of those airport security like tests on our border. They found it easy to find crossover points to bring simulated radiological or bioweapon type packages. They also found serious gaps in our southern border too, but why would terrorists go that way? I just don't find drugs or Jesus and Maria to be very persuasive arguments for that kind of spending gap.

To wrap this up I think the focus of border security should be security and not immigration or drugs (legalize--stop the insane war on drugs). If we are not going get serious about employers, then yes, grant amnesty to those here and ease immigration policies so that it is out in the open so that illegal border crossings are more closely aligned with illegal security issues. Many lips say yes to going after employers, but their passionate bodies say no and both need to be aligned to effect change.

Good Lord! This:

is an incredibly piss poor way to communicate a thought about moral priorities and you should have the integrity to admit it.

 

I agree with Red in this thread.
Now.
You have to blame those who you have voted for because of their inactions, the federal government failed to enforce the law.
We have Americans in Arizona who have lost services and others have been killed by illegals.

If some of you don't like the law you should call obama and have him change the federal law or run for office yourself.
Its high time we started enforcing laws in this country and start cutting off those who live in Mexico from crossing the border and sending their kids to schools in this country and collecting our welfare for themselves.

 

Part of your premise is flawed. Constitutional rights are not reserved to Americans. They are extended to everyone, so the part about protecting rights is meaningless. As pretty and simple as the case you present is, it isn't convincing.

 

See now we have a real disagreement. That is exactly who they are RESERVED for. If they want to have those rights they should follow the process to become citizens and then all is good. Geez what are you going to say next that terrorist should be read their mirandas? I don't think so Fred.:nope:

 

sure its illegal, but crossing illegally to get a job to feed your family is about as illegal as jacking some guy in the jaw for calling your wife a c u next tuesday.

the only reasonable way to stop it is to treat the motivation. a fence still doesnt address the tons of illegals that get here with a tourist visa. are we gonna start hunting them down one by one?

i never remember hearing about terrorists coming thru Mx, but they have come through Canada.