New AP poll: Kerry 49%, Bush 46% among likely voters.

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Who is ahead in the Coaches poll?

 

On a serious note where in the Constitution is there a Seperation of Church and State. There is none.

The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Sepearation of Church and state comes from an 1802 letter from Thomas Jefferson to some Baptists who heard a rumor that Congrgationalism would become the national religion.

"I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

The "wall" was understood as one-directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state. The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values.

The people did not want freedom from religion, but freedom of religion.

The suppression of the Christian tradition by the left is itself an establishment of a state religion, the very thing the Constitution intends not to do. By disallowing Christianity in many public settings the courts have established Athieism as the state religion.

 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com

Avg has Bush in the lead...

 

Nice try...

Jefferson was explaining the intent of the Amendment. He was in a good position to know, because he had been in communication with James Madison, and it was at his urging that the Bill of Rights was included at all.

Madison was so fervently against government sponsorship of religion that he opposed chaplains in the military.

The exact words "separation of church and state" don't have to be in the Constitution for the concept to be true any more than "Trinity" needs to be in the Bible (which it's not).

I've never been able to figure out how somebody can have "freedom of religion" if they're not given freedom from somebody else's religion.

 

No Rex you are looking at the quote as someone from the 20th century. Put yourself in the shoes of the Baptist who thought there religion was on the verge of being banned. Jefferson was not clarifying the intent of the amendment. He was pointing out the the freedom of the churches to teach was seperated from the govenment of the State.

 

Sorry, LSUSupaFan...

But your argument makes no sense, because the wording of the Amendment, itself, is not unidirectional, but bidirectional.

Do you see the word "OR" in there?

 

I don't even know how to respond when there is a complete lack of logic on the other side.

 

Then you need to think on it some more.

There are no one-sided "walls of separation" separating anything, including church from state... not now, nor in Jefferson's time. He chose his metaphor carefully.

There is no evidence from the Baptist letter to Jefferson that they were in fear of being banned.
There is nothing in Jefferson's response to the Baptists that addresses such a fear, because it was not an issue. They wanted an opinion on church and state alliance, not on any feared ban. The First Amendment was clear: Congress would make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. To assert that they were afraid of being banned because of such wording is absurd.

By the way, you're just repeating the Dan Barton meme about some unidirectional aspect of the wall. Dan Barton attributes this statement to Jefferson: "That wall is a one directional wall. It keeps the government from running the church but it makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government." Jefferson was not a Christian, and would never have said nor insinuated such a thing. And what should be blatantly obvious to anybody is that if the founding fathers had wanted Christian principles to be the guiding force behind the Constitution they could have and would very easily incorporated those words into the document.

Reading Dan Barton or getting your information from right wing sites is not a proper way to learn American history.

 

rex is right about this. i dont understand why you dont see it.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

since congress makes all the rules, and they are not to "respect" any religion, i dont think it could be any clearer than the government was to be totally independent of religion.

even if the constitution didnt say that, isnt it just obvious to you that government and religion should be as separate from each other as possible?