Moore Claims He Will Monitor Florida Elections

SabanFan · Jul 29, 2004

Thanks. It's a gift. :wink:

G_MAN113 · Jul 29, 2004

CRAWFISH said:

Why does MM scare you guys so much?
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You're making the mistake of equating the fact that we see him for what he
is, i.e. a cut-rate Joseph Goebbels, with fear. I don't fear MM at all...I just recognize a bullsh*t artist when I smell one.

bayareatiger · Jul 29, 2004

G_MAN113 said:

He could always make a "mockumentary" about it. :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

The fact that "Fahrenheit 911" has taken in $100 million is proof positive of
Barnum's old axiom about nobody ever going broke underestimating the taste of the American public.
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The actual quote was from the great American author H. L. Mencken, and it goes:
"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people"

Intelligence is NOT MM's strong point...

G_MAN113 · Jul 29, 2004

bayareatiger said:

The actual quote was from the great American author H. L. Mencken, and it goes:
"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people"

Intelligence is NOT MM's strong point...
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Hmm...looks like somebody got a "Bartlett's Familiar Quotations" for Christmas last year. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Once again, BAT...I stand corrected. But better educated now. Thanks.

bayareatiger · Jul 29, 2004

G_MAN113 said:

Hmm...looks like somebody got a "Bartlett's Familiar Quotations" for Christmas last year. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Once again, BAT...I stand corrected. But better educated now. Thanks.
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It comes in handy as a doorstop...

...I have NO idea what's in it, because as you can see, I'm illiterate... :grin:

I would have let it go had you gotten the quote right...

...it doesn't really matter who the quote is attributed to,
it's the gist of what they said that is important...

Thanks for being a good sport - it's a sign of intelligence...

...which we both agree MM has NONE of... :dis:

dallastigers · Jul 29, 2004

CRAWFISH said:

Why does MM scare you guys so much?

I think he has some really good points. We sent innocent Americans to Iraq because they had "WMD's". We are losing soldiers every single day.

We need to find OSAMA.He killed 3,000 Americans.

Iraq was a big mistake. We could have taken Saddam out at any time.
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We also could have taken out Bin Laden a few times before 09-11 as well. Is it only ok for you guys against the war in Iraq to take out people after they kill Americans. No stockpiles does not mean that there were not violations. Read Kay's report he even speculated that their was a possibility that materials were transfered to Syria. Kay also stated that it was a worldwide intelligence failure since everyone thought he had stockpiles and more materials than we have found (and there are still numerous items unaccounted for). Bush also stated reasons other than stockpiles of WMDs when stating his case for the war. Now there is verification that Iraq was seeking out materials in Niger and Joe Wilson even mislead the media and public on what he actually reported. Iraq was not a mistake. I have not agreed with how the uprisings were handled before the handover, but our action in taking out Saddam was not a mistake.

from Kay.

Quote:

In an exclusive interview with The Telegraph, Dr Kay,who last week resigned as head of the Iraq Survey Group, said that he had uncovered evidence that unspecified materials had been moved to Syria shortly before last year's war to overthrow Saddam.

"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons," he said. "But we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD programme. Precisely what went to Syria, and what has happened to it, is a major issue that needs to be resolved."

Dr Kay's comments will intensify pressure on President Bashar Assad to clarify the extent of his co-operation with Saddam's regime and details of Syria's WMD programme. Mr Assad has said that Syria was entitled to defend itself by acquiring its own biological and chemical weapons arsenal.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...25.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/01/25/ixnewstop.html

On Friday, Polish troops discovered four anti-aircraft missiles that are believed to have been produced in Europe this year, a Polish defense ministry spokesman in Warsaw said.

While they are not weapons of mass destruction, the missiles were banned under a 1990 arms embargo.

Testing facility discovered

Kay's 1,200-person team has found two new facilities near a prison where it believes biological weapons tests were conducted on prisoners.

"We have taken senior Iraqi leaders in detention to them," Kay said. The leaders were those who evidence indicated had been involved in the experiments.

"They were clearly shaken up by being taken there," he said, adding they were afraid that "we would make them face a lineup" of victims.

Referring to samples of botulinum toxin Kay has reported finding in a scientist's home, he said the deadly toxins were stored in the scientist's family refrigerator, near their food, and he returned even more dangerous toxins back to his institute.

Kay said that Iraq had paid North Korea $10 million for No Dong missile technology but that the North Koreans did not give it to them. The Iraqis asked for their money back, and the North Koreans refused, he said.

"It's a lesson in negotiating with the North Koreans," he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/03/sprj.irq.kay/index.html

Quote:

"I actually think the intelligence community owes the president rather than the president owing the American people," he said.

"We have to remember that this view of Iraq was held during the Clinton administration and didn't change in the Bush administration," Kay said.

"It is not a political 'gotcha' issue. It is a serious issue of 'How you can come to a conclusion that is not matched in the future?'"

Other countries' intelligence agencies shared the U.S. conclusion that Iraq had stockpiled such weapons, though most disagreed with the United States about how best to respond.

Quote:
Despite not finding any WMD, Kay said his team found that the Iraqi senior leadership "had an intention to continue to pursue their WMD activities. That they, in fact, had a large number of WMD-related activities."

Kay predicted investigators would find that Iraqi scientists were "working on developing weapons or weapons concepts that they had not moved into actual production."

Quote:
Kay also raised the possibility -- one he first discussed in a weekend interview with "The Sunday Telegraph" of London -- that clues about banned weapons programs might reside across Iraq's western border.

"There is ample evidence of movement to Syria before the war -- satellite photographs, reports on the ground of a constant stream of trucks, cars, rail traffic across the border. We simply don't know what was moved," Kay said.

But, he said, "the Syrian government there has shown absolutely no interest in helping us resolve this issue."

Kay acknowledged that the truth might never be revealed. Widespread looting in Baghdad after the invasion destroyed many government records. "There's always going to be unresolved ambiguity here."
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http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/25/sprj.nirq.kay/index.html

Kay in OCT 2003 about other non-stockpile issues.

Quote:

Why are we having such difficulty in finding weapons or in reaching a confident conclusion that they do not exist or that they once existed but have been removed? Our search efforts are being hindered by six principal factors:

1. From birth, all of Iraq's WMD activities were highly compartmentalized within a regime that ruled and kept its secrets through fear and terror and with deception and denial built into each program;

2. Deliberate dispersal and destruction of material and documentation related to weapons programs began pre-conflict and ran trans-to-post conflict;

3. Post-OIF looting destroyed or dispersed important and easily collectable material and forensic evidence concerning Iraq's WMD program. As the report covers in detail, significant elements of this looting were carried out in a systematic and deliberate manner, with the clear aim of concealing pre-OIF activities of Saddam's regime;

4. Some WMD personnel crossed borders in the pre/trans conflict period and may have taken evidence and even weapons-related materials with them;

5. Any actual WMD weapons or material is likely to be small in relation to the total conventional armaments footprint and difficult to near impossible to identify with normal search procedures. It is important to keep in mind that even the bulkiest materials we are searching for, in the quantities we would expect to find, can be concealed in spaces not much larger than a two car garage;

6. The environment in Iraq remains far from permissive for our activities, with many Iraqis that we talk to reporting threats and overt acts of intimidation and our own personnel being the subject of threats and attacks. In September alone we have had three attacks on ISG facilities or teams: The ISG base in Irbil was bombed and four staff injured, two very seriously; a two person team had their vehicle blocked by gunmen and only escaped by firing back through their own windshield; and on Wednesday, 24 September, the ISG Headquarters in Baghdad again was subject to mortar attack.

What have we found and what have we not found in the first 3 months of our work?

We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002. The discovery of these deliberate concealment efforts have come about both through the admissions of Iraqi scientists and officials concerning information they deliberately withheld and through physical evidence of equipment and activities that ISG has discovered that should have been declared to the UN. Let me just give you a few examples of these concealment efforts, some of which I will elaborate on later:

· A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research.

· A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.

· Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons.

· New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.

· Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).

· A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.

· Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the UN.

· Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1000 km -- well beyond the 150 km range limit imposed by the UN. Missiles of a 1000 km range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets through out the Middle East, including Ankara, Cairo, and Abu Dhabi.

· Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300 km range ballistic missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles, and other prohibited military equipment.

In addition to the discovery of extensive concealment efforts, we have been faced with a systematic sanitization of documentary and computer evidence in a wide range of offices, laboratories, and companies suspected of WMD work. The pattern of these efforts to erase evidence -- hard drives destroyed, specific files burned, equipment cleaned of all traces of use -- are ones of deliberate, rather than random, acts.

For example,

· On 10 July 2003 an ISG team exploited the Revolutionary Command Council (RCC) Headquarters in Baghdad. The basement of the main building contained an archive of documents situated on well-organized rows of metal shelving. The basement suffered no fire damage despite the total destruction of the upper floors from coalition air strikes. Upon arrival the exploitation team encountered small piles of ash where individual documents or binders of documents were intentionally destroyed. Computer hard drives had been deliberately destroyed. Computers would have had financial value to a random looter; their destruction, rather than removal for resale or reuse, indicates a targeted effort to prevent Coalition forces from gaining access to their contents.

· All IIS laboratories visited by IIS exploitation teams have been clearly sanitized, including removal of much equipment, shredding and burning of documents, and even the removal of nameplates from office doors.

· Although much of the deliberate destruction and sanitization of documents and records probably occurred during the height of OIF combat operations, indications of significant continuing destruction efforts have been found after the end of major combat operations, including entry in May 2003 of the locked gated vaults of the Ba'ath party intelligence building in Baghdad and highly selective destruction of computer hard drives and data storage equipment along with the burning of a small number of specific binders that appear to have contained financial and intelligence records, and in July 2003 a site exploitation team at the Abu Ghurayb Prison found one pile of the smoldering ashes from documents that was still warm to the touch.

I would now like to review our efforts in each of the major lines of enquiry that ISG has pursued during this initial phase of its work.

With regard to biological warfare activities, which has been one of our two initial areas of focus, ISG teams are uncovering significant information -- including research and development of BW-applicable organisms, the involvement of Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) in possible BW activities, and deliberate concealment activities. All of this suggests Iraq after 1996 further compartmentalized its program and

focused on maintaining smaller, covert capabilities that could be activated quickly to surge the production of BW agents.

Debriefings of IIS officials and site visits have begun to unravel a clandestine network of laboratories and facilities within the security service apparatus. This network was never declared to the UN and was previously unknown.

We are still working on determining the extent to which this network was tied to large-scale military efforts or BW terror weapons, but this clandestine capability was suitable for preserving BW expertise, BW capable facilities and continuing R&D -- all key elements for maintaining a capability for resuming BW production.

The IIS also played a prominent role in sponsoring students for overseas graduate studies in the biological sciences, according to Iraqi scientists and IIS sources, providing an important avenue for furthering BW-applicable research.

This was the only area of graduate work that the IIS appeared to sponsor.

Discussions with Iraqi scientists uncovered agent R&D work that paired overt work with nonpathogenic organisms serving as surrogates for prohibited investigation with pathogenic agents.

Examples include: B. Thurengiensis (Bt) with B. anthracis (anthrax), and medicinal plants with ricin.

In a similar vein, two key former BW scientists, confirmed that Iraq under the guise of legitimate activity developed refinements of processes and products relevant to BW agents. The scientists discussed the development of improved, simplified fermentation and spray drying capabilities for the simulant Bt that would have been directly applicable to anthrax, and one scientist confirmed that the production line for Bt could be switched to produce anthrax in one week if the seed stock were available.

A very large body of information has been developed through debriefings, site visits, and exploitation of captured Iraqi documents that confirms that Iraq concealed equipment and materials from UN inspectors when they returned in 2002.

One noteworthy example is a collection of reference strains that ought to have been declared to the UN.

Among them was a vial of live C. botulinum Okra B. from which a biological agent can be produced.

This discovery -- hidden in the home of a BW scientist -- illustrates the point I made earlier about the difficulty of locating small stocks of material that can be used to covertly surge production of deadly weapons.

The scientist who concealed the vials containing this agent has identified a large cache of agents that he was asked, but refused, to conceal. ISG is actively searching for this second cache.

Additional information is beginning to corroborate reporting since 1996 about human testing activities using chemical and biological substances, but progress in this area is slow given the concern of knowledgeable Iraqi personnel about their being prosecuted for crimes against humanity.

We have not yet been able to corroborate the existence of a mobile BW production effort. Investigation into the origin of and intended use for the two trailers found in northern Iraq in April has yielded a number of explanations, including hydrogen, missile propellant, and BW production, but technical limitations would prevent any of these processes from being ideally suited to these trailers. That said, nothing we have discovered rules out their potential use in BW production.

We have made significant progress in identifying and locating individuals who were reportedly involved in a mobile program, and we are confident that we will be able to get an answer to the questions as to whether there was a mobile program and whether the trailers that have been discovered so far were part of such a program.

Let me turn now to chemical weapons (CW). In searching for retained stocks of chemical munitions, ISG has had to contend with the almost unbelievable scale of Iraq's conventional weapons armory, which dwarfs by orders of magnitude the physical size of any conceivable stock of chemical weapons.

For example, there are approximately 130 known Iraqi Ammunition Storage Points (ASP), many of which exceed 50 square miles in size and hold an estimated 600,000 tons of artillery shells, rockets, aviation bombs and other ordinance. Of these 130 ASPs, approximately 120 still remain unexamined.

As Iraqi practice was not to mark much of their chemical ordinance and to store it at the same ASPs that held conventional rounds, the size of the required search effort is enormous.

While searching for retained weapons, ISG teams have developed multiple sources that indicate that Iraq explored the possibility of CW production in recent years, possibly as late as 2003.

When Saddam had asked a senior military official in either 2001 or 2002 how long it would take to produce new chemical agent and weapons, he told ISG that after he consulted with CW experts in OMI he responded it would take six months for mustard.

Another senior Iraqi chemical weapons expert in responding to a request in mid-2002 from Uday Husayn for CW for the Fedayeen Saddam estimated that it would take two months to produce mustard and two years for Sarin...

Quote:

They have told ISG that Saddam Husayn remained firmly committed to acquiring nuclear weapons. These officials assert that Saddam would have resumed nuclear weapons development at some future point. Some indicated a resumption after Iraq was free of sanctions.

At least one senior Iraqi official believed that by 2000 Saddam had run out of patience with waiting for sanctions to end and wanted to restart the nuclear program.

The Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission (IAEC) beginning around 1999 expanded its laboratories and research activities and increased its overall funding levels.

This expansion may have been in initial preparation for renewed nuclear weapons research, although documentary evidence of this has not been found, and this is the subject of continuing investigation by ISG.

Starting around 2000, the senior Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission (IAEC) and high-level Ba'ath Party official Dr. Khalid Ibrahim Sa'id began several small and relatively unsophisticated research initiatives that could be applied to nuclear weapons development.

These initiatives did not in-and-of themselves constitute a resumption of the nuclear weapons program, but could have been useful in developing a weapons-relevant science base for the long-term. We do not yet have information indicating whether a higher government authority directed Sa'id to initiate this research and, regretfully, Dr. Said was killed on April 8th during the fall of Baghdad when the car he was riding in attempted to run a Coalition roadblock.
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http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/02/kay.report/

Not to mention information that has come up after Kay's report. Below are some if the links still work.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004...eportsaddams.Wmd.Have.Been.Found-670120.shtml
http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm?include=detail&storyid=670123
http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins200405030839.asp
http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20040429-085643-3429r.htm
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13286
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13282
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/18/115119.shtml
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/17/170427.shtml
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/oil_for_food_ripoff_040420-1.html
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13471
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/124nbgug.asp
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...on_re_mi_ea/un_weapons_inspectors_1&printer=1
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13835
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040622-085205-5477r.htm
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007135.php
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14176
http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may200407121105.asp

Also you can go back and read Bush's words. I can particularly like how his statement "Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option. " has been turned around into him stating that we were actually in imminent danger.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/01/29/bush.speech.txt/
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030226-11.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030205-1.html#13
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030206-17.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030306-10.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030308-1.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030315.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/

marcmc99 · Jul 29, 2004

CRAWFISH said:

Why does MM scare you guys so much?

Michael Moore does not scare me. He, along with the rest of the Hollywood gang worry me, because they have a huge impact on the way ignorant, uneducated Americans will vote in November. This may sound harsh, but it is true. Many Americans will go to the polls with no understanding of the issues at hand and cast their vote based on what they are told by these people. You know the ones I am talking about, Moore, Chevy Chase, Whoopi and the rest of the gang. These people are so out of touch with the reality in which everyday Americans live it is ridiculous, yet Americans everywhere continue to idolize them and respect their political opinions.

What does frighten me is we are in serious danger of being ruled by a minority, rather than the principle of majority rule upon which democracy is founded. While the ACLU and the liberal "nutt-jobs" do have a right for their voices to be heard, they do not have the right to force their will on the majority of Americans who still fall somewhere in the moderate to conservative category. This is election is about many things, and although Iraq seems to be the focal point of many discussions, the truth be told, we will remain in Iraq regardless who wins the presidential election.

One of my biggest concerns is that during the next 4 years, it is probable that 2 or 3 Supreme Court Justices will be appointed. Who do I want appointing these judges, the most liberal Democrat in Washington based on his voting record, or a conservative who more closely represents the morals and values thankfully still diplayed by a majority, albeit a dwindling majority of Americans? It is these judges who will either stand up or cave in to the pressures of the ACLU and will shape our society for generations to come.

Michael Moore disgusts me because he is using the Iraq War as a tool, to first and foremost put money in his pockets, and secondly to sway voters to elect a President who will allow our society to be shaped in the "I can do anything I want, as long as it makes me happy " fashion the Hollywood gang desires. This is why I am against Michael Moore.

I wish Bill O'Reilly and the rest of the Conservatives would ignore this guy from here on out. He has been discredited, as apparent to anyone who is capable of looking at the facts and coming to a reasonable, intelligent conclusion. Even most Democrats don't want anything to do with him, and now he is grasping at straws to keep his name in the spotlight and the dollars rolling in.
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Moore Claims He Will Monitor Florida Elections

SabanFan The voice of reason

G_MAN113 Founding Member

bayareatiger If it's too loud YOU'RE TOO OLD

G_MAN113 Founding Member

bayareatiger If it's too loud YOU'RE TOO OLD

dallastigers Founding Member

marcmc99 Founding Member

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