Moderates

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by tirk, Jun 18, 2007.

  1. OkieTigerTK

    OkieTigerTK Tornado Alley

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    the last candidate i worked for i considered a moderate. he was fairly conservative on fiscal issues and fairly liberal on social issues.
     
  2. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    it is from the perspective of the believer. not everybody is correct with their beliefs and principles, but at least most people have them.

    you don't get it. anyone can claim they are balanced, that is why is it a meaningless statement.. i am only claiming i am "balanced" to point that out. any given point on a continuum is in between other points. anyone can label the views they do not have as "extreme".


    again, i didnt say i agree with it. if you think that life is sacred, fine, at least you stand for something besides pleasing others.

    the point we are making here is that it is nice when people stand for something besides the results of the polls.
     
  3. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Stating the obvious. All people have them.

    Anyone can claim that they are Batman, too! What in the world is your point? I'm talking about where a person actually stands, not his rhetoric. Of course each person has his own perspective on the balance point and the extremes. That does not make it meaningless. Non sequitor.

    Not once have I stated I stand for something to please others, in fact I refuted this in post 23. Stop repeating old arguments, it bores me.

    Not once have I said I stand for the results of polls and I refuted this already in Post 37 and chided you for repeating yourself in post 54. Now you're repeating yourself again.

    I see now that you have depleted your logic and are just repeating old arguments, previously discussed, in your curious need to get in the last post.
     
  4. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    i havent heard yours.

    it does make it meaningless to use as a justification for a particular stance. if you ask me why i favor lower taxes, i tell you specifics, why i think it helps the economy, why i think it is good for people to control their own money, etc, i do not answer with "because of balance and wisdom". that is, as kcal put it, "nonspeak". this is something you do not understand, even though i patiently explain it repeatedly.

    i know, if you had admitted it already i wouldnt be explaining it to you again.

    yes, kindly let me have it so we can let this thread die.
     
  5. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Sure, sonny.
     
  6. CParso

    CParso Founding Member

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    Some politicians use the "moderate" thing to try to appeal to a bigger audience. In general, I'd say that this is a good thing for our country. Moderation keeps things flowing smoothly.

    As for most people that consider themselves moderate, that doesn't mean that there viewpoints are necessarily defind by the spectrum. I can form an opinion on a concept without hearing anyone else's opinion or knowing the extremes, but generally I'm going to fall somewhere in the middle - that makes me a moderate.
     
  7. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    that certainly makes them more electable, it definitely doesnt make them better or more honest. is it a good thing, for instance, that barack obama pretends to be christian, because atheism is too extreme?

    how so? in terms of the legislative branch, you dont want things to run smoothly, you want them to do nothing, if they argue endlessly and never do anything, that is good.

    not all moderates.

    i dunno, you have some pretty extreme views. one time i said i favored massive, massive reductions in taxes, and the size of the government, even proposing we abolish whole departments of the government, and you agreed. that is pretty extreme.

    sometimes the current "moderate" view on something is correct. but they key here is that it isnt right or valuable because it is moderate. the moderate-ness of a view doesnt give it value, it is right or wrong independent of that. the moderate view has a random correlation to the correct view.
     
  8. CParso

    CParso Founding Member

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    I should've been more specific, but I was assuming that they planned to vote the way that they represented themselves before the election. As for pretending to be Christian, I don't blame him. I would do the same thing. So I would say that considering the circumstances, it is not a bad thing.

    Most of the time we want them to do nothing, I agree. However, partisan politics hasn't stopped them from doing lots of terrible things so that idea doesn't work in reality.

    That's why I said that it didn't necessitate it. Some people just don't want to chose sides or form their own opinions. I don't particularly care about these people one way or the other. Others think that the best solution always lies somewhere in the middle because it keeps the most people satisfied. This, IMO, is Red. He's not afraid to make his own opinions, but in the spirit of workability it's always somewhere in the middle. I think this philosophy works best for politicians, and would prefer more of them like this.

    That's why I said I'm a moderate since my opinions generally fall somewhere in the middle. They don't always.

    Usually, there is no right or wrong in instances where the moderate view comes into place. There are just sides, each with their own opinions and reasons for those views. This is why I think that compromising works best here.
     
  9. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    this gets at the point of whether moderates are moderates because they have principles or because they like to be electable and acceptable to the masses.

    for the purposes of this discussion, let's assume i am right and obama is an atheist pretending to be christian. why is this good? i think it exposes him as a man who cares more about power than honesty. i think this indicates a tendency to do what the public wants, rather than what a candidate knows is right. i think this is the opposite of leadership. this is followership. demagoguery. telling people something you know to be wrong because you know thats what they want to hear, because the ultimate goal is to get into power.


    true, you have some incredibly extreme opinions, for instance your favoring enormous government controls on campaign finance and political speech/advertising.

    there is always a right and wrong answer. we don't always know the answer, because some things are very complex (the effects of a flat tax on the economy for example), but some situations are quite simple and the extreme view (for instance, the complete dismantling of the social security entitlement system, or total drug legalization) are clearly right. in the situation where the correct position happens to currently be considered extreme, compromising is totally bad. remember, what is considered extreme and what is considered moderate is totally arbitrary.
     
  10. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Nor does it make them less so, those being different issues entirely. It does make them more pragmatic and sensible, however.

    Evidence? If he says he's a Christian and goes to church and lives like a Christian, then he's a Christian. The rule of the duck applies here.

    If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck and looks like a duck . . . it's a duck.

    Of course, but what I suggest is that a moderate position is most likely to be right and valuable. It certainly has more flexibility to move in either direction, if prudent to do so.

    No, it's a typical bell curve with the bulk of the correct views near the middle and tapering off to both extremes.

    Life is a gamble and winners play the percentages. Take an imprudent risk and you can win big and you can lose big. Winning consistently beats winning big for this reason. It just makes more sense.
     

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