Now now, I would not want to lose a client for sitting in their office typing several paragraphs in a response, now would I?
No, you don't. I've already said it. And I'm not about to get into individual moral philosophy. You think there can be no good without Jesus. Fine. But I will always think that is wrong. What does good even mean in the presence of Jesus? Your free ticket into eternal life? Why does it matter if good-doing is associated with Jesus? Is it any less valuable? I've posed that last question to you several different ways now... Again, there are plenty of 'good' people that don't believe this. One of the kindest, most giving people that I know is an atheist. Jesus did not give him the means to be a good person. He learned that on his own. I think that if you make your argument, you must admit that man is intrinsically evil, and cannot act in any way that is not evil without the guidance of Jesus. But that presents a bit of a problem because human kind is said to be created in God's 'likeness and image.' How can that be, if we are not capable of being good without Jesus?
i am atheist and easily the nicest and best all-around person i know. well i guess i am racist. and misogynist. and arrogant. now that i think of it, i could maybe use a little jesus in my life. and i mean little in terms of actual stature. like a 3 foot tall jesus advising me would really help me out.
I didn't say that all, nor do I think that. I made the point that individual good can exist apart from God. I am not attempting to argue that man is intrinsically evil. You would be able to shoot that down with anecdotes. It is very possible for anyone to act contrary to who they are. What we are intrinsically is dead spiritually...in a fallen state where it is impossible to please God. By judging individual acts you would be hard pressed to point out that all men were evil...giving your friend as an example. It presents no problem. Our natures are inherently flawed after the Fall. Because of the free will that was given, we ate of the tree of "knowledge of good and evil". God said, "you will surely die" and that is exactly what happened. Not that we are unable to do any good, just that we are unable to please God and earn our own salvation. Yes. It's less valuable in itself... and even less valuable if it is done for (vs. from the will of) Jesus. God needs nothing and is perfectly content in himself. "Good-doing" in itself is "filthy rags". Isa 64:6, Romans 3:10 It's all about Jesus.
I have a very serious problem with this. Given the exact same set of circumstance and same actions in each situation, how can you assign a greater value to one because it is done in alignment with your own personal dogma? How is it less valuable? And why? If the end result is the same, why does one person get 'more credit' because they did it 'for Jesus?' Rationale is a God-given gift.
You are misunderstanding me completely. However, from your POV I agree with everything you have just said. Christians are not assigning relative worth to a specific action because of the motivation behind it. It's about the theory of doing good "for God" vs. doing good "from God". It's about being saved through faith, and that new life which indwells producing good works vs. earning salvation through good works done out of your own resources -- which are useless apart from faith. As I keep saying, it's all about Jesus. Not doing good for Him, but doing good from Him.
For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God...for indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to the Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God (1 Cor.1:18; 22-24).[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
