I never said people should be out of the poverty level. My definition of a decent living is provide a roof and food for your family. Some money is better than no money at all. Not being able to "Afford" to work at the minimum wage is a matter of opinion. American's have this sense of entitlement that I just don't understand. I don't agree that it is an unalienable right to have healthcare, insurance etc. I chose to better my situation in a way I knew how, going to school. Now that school can be vocational, or traditional colleges. I don't care but I have plenty of family that has done both and work hard to provide for their immediate family. Some even working at minimum wage. I'm not saying this country isn't screwed up because people are paid based on the skills the bring to a job and society. I don't particularly agree that Professional athletes make millions of dollars while teachers get paid squat. But that's how it is and that's the free market. People will pay for what they value most and should have the right to do that. Again, how does raising minimum wage make the police and INS enforce our current laws. I never have said I was against a raise in the MW, I have said I am for an equilibrium, but I still don't see your linking it to the enforcement of the law? 1) I took an economics class or two in college and understand the concept of supply and demand in the job market. 2) Less job availability here is still more than what they have in Mexico. The illegals seemed to be able to make a living and send money back to their homeland at or below our minimum wage, why can't American's? Because there are just certain things American's feel they are above now, its all back to that sense of entitlement. If you raise the minimum wage, it in effect raises the floor for the illegals coming too. As long as the laws (your number 1) are not enforced, employers will continue to pay less money for more work done. There isn't some moral ground that most employers are going to hold to. Law enforcement is going to have to do their part. I don't proclaim to know what it is, never said I did, and never said I was against increasing the MW. For all I know it could be $20/ hour right now (I doubt it but I am just saying I am not an economist) I agree with you that it needs to exist and increase. The reason it hasn't caused a problem is because like you say, every time they do increase it, it is way behind inflation so it isn't causing a big problem. It's just corporation's way of fighting against the raise. I am just saying in my opinion there is a major flaw in your economic theory that raising a minimum wage will solve the problem of illegals coming here for work and a better life than what they have in their home country. No matter how many more Americans are willing to work a certain job for a few extra dollars an hour, there is still going to be work available for the illegals because there will be employers willing to chance breaking the law and paying less or the equivlant out to the workers for more work being done. The only way to start fixing this is for law enforcement to actually enforce these laws. The one point we agree totally on. In fact I wouldn't mind seeing it indexed to inflation in some fashion or another, just like almost every other salaried job out there.
That's called subsistence living, not a decent living. Subsistence is what third-world countries achieve. A decent living is a roof, food, essential transportation, medical insurance, education expenses to improve yourself or your kids, and a retirement plan. Enough to be above the poverty level and actually pay taxes and save some money. I do not understand your "third-world" standards. This is America, kid! It doesn't. It's one of the many things that must be done to fix the situation. Are you serious? You want them to turn us into Mexico, complete with slums and barrios? You've never been to Mexico have you? Ever been overseas at all and seen what the third world is really like? Illegal aliens don't pay normal rent, they live in shacks and vehicles. They drive without licenses and without liability insurance. They pay no taxes. Many have communicable diseases because they have no money for health care. They send much of their cash back to relatives in Mexico where it doesn't help our economy. And on and on. How? I didn't say it would solve it and I pointed that out already. I said it would help to solve it. many things have to be done and enforcement of the laws is just one of them. You say you understand economics, then you understand supply and demand. Keeping Americans working at MacDonald's at a fair minimum wage reduces demand for Mexicans to come here and take one of those jobs. Law enforcement reduces the supply by walling the Mexicans out and jailing American employers to break the laws.
Third World countries don’t even achieve my definition. There is govt. provided transportation out there at a minimal cost. I took out loans to get my education and am paying substantially more than others who graduated just before me because of the rates I am now being forced to pay on those. Where does it say or imply retirement is an unalienable right? “Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness” everything else is pretty much up to interpretation by both sides. I would put retirement into the category of pursuit of happiness. Healthcare is somewhat in the middle and I will concede that it may be interpreted to fall under the preamble of the constitution that we should have some because it “promotes general welfare” but not to the extent that the left wants. But I still don’t think its an unalienable right. (I know I’m contradicting myself to an extent, its hard being me and hurts my brain some days :insane Your opinion of third world standards. The news I see and read and the places I have been to and the people I have talked to show me that people in the 3rd world countries have it a whole lot worse than the people who live and work here for minimum wage. Yes I have been to Mexico among other countries. I happen to have done a mission trip to Mexico. Never been to another continent but I try to keep abreast of the situations. I attempt to keep myself educated by speaking first hand with people I know that have been there first hand to help with situations in some of the 3rd world countries. You’re right about a lot of that stuff, again, they come here because it is better than where they were. Some of these American’s might want to go live and work in the places you talk about, they might not complain so much about working here in the US even at minimum wage. I’m not saying its great, but again, something is better than nothing. Can’t argue, it made sense yesterday, but I have slept since then :grin: I see plenty of fast food places hiring above the current min wage (2-3$ and some 4$ above) and with signing bonuses, yet the unemployment rate is going up and American’s are refusing these “McDonald’s” jobs. There is a sense of entitlement in this country and some people believe they are above taking those jobs, just like there are a lot of janitorial jobs out there as well and some people just will not take those jobs. These jobs aren’t glorious but they are wage paying jobs above the minimum wage. Obviously the demand for employees is still there, in fact so much so that they are willing to pay above min wage to Americans. So if Americans don’t want to take the jobs, who is going to take them? Illegals take the jobs because they fill the supply side when American’s won’t do the work. Personally, I am of the opinion that something is better than nothing. Where you see people not working because they can’t “afford” to work at minimum wage, I see people who are lazy and rather take a govt handout than actually work at all. In the end all I can see is that we agree to disagree about this issue.
I'm not at all sure what point you are trying to make. I don't think America is a place where people should be forced to live in poverty because the minimum wage is insufficient to pay the costs of living. Exactly, and we need to keep it that way. Unemployment in the US is 5%. Almost everybody is working and most of us at good wages. "McDonald's Jobs" are not careers, but they should provide a simple living and health insurance. No they aren't, for the most part. Americans can't do the work and maintain an American standard of living for the third-world wages paid to illegal aliens. Another myth that you'll have a hard time proving. There are no handouts for able-bodied citizens who are too lazy to work. The welfare reforms of the 90's ended all of that. Unemployment is only 5%. Those few Americans who can't work at the minimum wage have found better jobs or they are flat broke and homeless. The minimum wage needs to be fair and go up with the cost of living, you already agree. This needs to be done so that the lowest paid Americans don't fall off the prosperity wagon altogether. The answer to the jobs that Americans can no longer afford to do is to hire LEGAL aliens. Agricultural migrant workers for instance. We need to institute better and easier methods of getting LEGAL guest workers to do these jobs. In this fashion we can screen them for communicable diseases, felons, terrorists, spies, and other criminals. Our lettuce gets picked. We can insure that they can be tracked and go home when their term of employment is over or they quit. They can get IDs, licenses and must pay liability insurance to drive on our roads. They can pay taxes. But they must not be allowed to retire here. They must return to their own country's social security program.
I was making reference to you saying higher pay at McDonald's would reduce the supply of jobs available for illegals as an example. It hasn't reduced yet when there is a supply of those jobs out there that are paying more than min. wage and people are not taking them. So how would it reduce the supply now that they are forced to pay the wage already offered? I see how you are connecting the raising of minimum wage will reduce supply in theory, but that theory only holds up if there are not jobs now that are above minimum wage that the unemployed will take. I see jobs advertised everyday and hear about them frequently from friends and family in other parts of the US. What changes when the wages offered are min wage instead of above it? Nothing. So how is it going to affect the supply, it won't. We agree to raise minimum wage and for the reasoning behind it, we don't want the lower class to fall off the wagon of prosperity. I just can't see how your explanation works except in a world where too many variables must remain constant. I think we would have to meet and you show me graphically to have a chance of convincing me. I also agree with the idea of bringing in foreign workers program. I think that would be a wonderful program, again all this assumes we can keep the illegal aliens from coming here.
On the contrary, they find people and stay in business. They offer higher prices because that is what it takes to get the people they need. This suggests to me that the minimum needs to follow suit. When Taco Bell is paying $8.50 to get people (and they do) the true (balanced) minimum can not be far behind. Food service is one area where employers cannot afford to hire illegal aliens except as mop boys and dishwashers. People will not go to a place where the waiters and cashiers cannot speak English, nor if the non-innoculated foreign help looks like they might have infections or other contagious diseases. I quit going to Jason's Deli when they sent my food out and the order was wrong. I complained to the pock-marked Mexican waitress, who just gave me a blank look and said "No spik Anglish" and walked away. I had to go find a manager.
I think we are basically just down to how high it should go:grin: Yes the market is demanding higher wages for these positions, and if the market for these positions is demanding higher than minimum wage, then that is a sure sign it should be raised.
Hey Red, just a point of order here. Your comments here are in reply to comments made by Tigerbnd05, but you attributed them all to me. I'm in your head now, eh? I'm a little creeped out!:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
