A learned a long time ago to never argue with someone who knows it all. DRC is kicking you ass here and you can't, or won't, admit it.
Well, at least you are perceptive. :grin: DRC is barely hanging on by his teeth, but at least he's engaging in the discussion, not tossing insults, and trying to make logical points instead of emotional ones. We're having fun here while you grumble.
And once again, Obama is demanding the exact same thing. Obama said repeatedly during the election campaign he would talk to Iran without precondition and critized Bush for not doing it. Yet now, its obvious he has preconditions that are remarkably similar to what Bush and McCain endorsed. All that bluster from Obama about how bad Bush was handling Iran and he is following a similar path. Lets look at what Biden said this weekend: Tell me how that policy differs substantially from Bush? Its exactly what Bush advocated for years. Additionally, there is a great deal of evidence Obama is wanting to RAMP UP sanctions against Iran. His staff is already laying the ground work in the press and we seem to be soliciting the help of Britain, Germany and France. Iranians arent stupid, they see Obama offering essentially the same thing Bush was demanding which is why the response to Obama is exactly the same as the response to Bush. Ah, the typical foreign policy feign as it relates to Israel. Ive heard this shiit a thousand times but the truth is we see Israel as the great equalizer in the region. We work and train with them side by side on the military front. We can always rely on them to do the dirty work even if we have to hold our nose from time to time because of how they react to certain situations. I dont care if Israel hasnt fought beside us in past wars. We have been as close a military ally to Israel as any country in the world. If the politcal climate were different, we would have asked them to help in both Iraq wars and they would have come running with guns blazin. If Iran gets close to a nuke, Israel will go in and take it out. We really dont have to worry about handling Iran's nukes, let Israel do what they do best and thats kick ahab the arab's azz. Your the one who said he offered to "hold out his hand". If that isnt offering up something I dont know what is. Your the one who said read between the lines. Who do you think he was primarily talking about with that comment? If you dont say Iran then naivety abounds your thinking. So a similar approach that Bush had with current evidence pointing to tougher sanctions is better? This is one thing I will agree on but I dont think its what you meant. :lol: Dont be so naive to think the "hold out hand, unclench fist" comment wasn't directed squarely at Iran. Of course it was also meant for our consumption simply because he cant say the obvious. That he's primarily following Bush's policy. How do you think it would have played out in the election if Obama said he was going to have preconditions and he would push for a harder line? I say it would have taken the wind right out of his sails and reduced his ability to criticize Bush. What Obama says and what he does are two different things, like most politicians. Not complete failure. Dont get me wrong, I want Obama to be the most successful president in history because we sure as hell need it. However, recognizing rookie mistakes and bumbling appointments is part of his scorecard and so far he is on the wrong end concerning these points.
It's not a precondition if you are talking about it. Give them time. They will talk and that's where the conditions will be delivered. No, there is an obvious and substantial difference and it couldn't be simpler. Is it not clear that demanding this as a precondition to talking is different from presenting them as conditions in an actual diplomatic exchange? Again, Obama has not made any diplomatic exchange with the Iranians for them to respond to. And the difference is that Obama will be offering the carrot and the stick, which is more effective than offering the carrot OR the stick independently. :huh: First of all the Iranians are not Arabs, they are Persians. They are less politically emotional than Arabs and more calculating in their strategy. And yes, the Israelis have their own quarrel with Iran and the means to fight them. That's exactly the point I made. Which is that the US will not be retaliating on Iran for an attack on Israel. Israel will. AFTER his only precondition . . . to "unclench your fists". It's allegorical and intentionally so because it was a speech to the American people, not a diplomatic offer to any country. You are reading this into it. He could have said "Iran" if he wanted to. We have other enemies that he also addressed with this remark. North Korea and Pakistan are the most threatening, but also Chavez in Venezuela, Sudan, Somalia, and others. And don't forget Russia and China with whom we already talk.
You mean preconditions. :lol: They will talk through some intermediary and Iran will get the same preconditions Bush gave em and Iran will not accept them, again. No, its not clear because Biden and Obama are tip toeing around the 2 letter word that's like a pink elephant in the room. You want to talk about reading between the lines, let me finish Bidens comments for you... Im aware that Iranians are Persians just like Pakistanis are Persians but the operate under Sharia Law and the Qur'an which makes them radical arabs, technicality notwithstanding. And Iran isnt reading into this? Like I said, they view Obama as business as usual from the US. Not quite the change everyone was hoping for. So much for the carrot and stick approach. Obama sure tried to sneak one by em there but imagine that, they caught on. :lol:
I'm sorry Red but I've been following this dialogue and the only appreciable distinction I can gather between Obama's and Bush's "offers" to Iran are that one was Obama's and one was Bush's...or, in your world, one was good and one was bad.
Truly shocking development. I mean, I can hardly believe it. I guess the air really is different on some planets.
I warned you to wait and see what happens. Obama is barely out of the gate. So, here are today's headlines. Read 'em and weep, boys. :grin: Did Ahmadidnejad "spit on Obama". Nope, he's willing to talk. Is Iran suffering from much internal discontent that can be exploited by a clever President? Yep, war and threat of war makes them pull together, but openness and democracy is slowly sapping the hard-liners support.
Pay attention to the timing. Bush and Obama want almost the same thing, policy-wise. But Bush demanded concessions up front, while Obama is willing to let the Iranians have their say first.
