I don't buy the theory of carbon dating. I believe it to be flawed.

How is that a problem? Just because we cannot explain something doesn't make it any less real. People need to realize that we are not as mighty and all knowing as we think we are.

We talked about this two Sundays ago. I'll share it with you in another post. It will open all kinds of avenues for others to attack Christianity, but I'll talk about it nonetheless.

I believe it is older than 4,000 years. How much older I don't know. I'm very confident that it is less than 10,000 years. It is not "we know it is billions" You should say "scientist have estimated that the earth is billions of......." It is not a "fact"

Actually, it took less time. 6 days to be exact. On the 7th God rested.

God isn't contradicting himself. No science has proven God and his word, the Bible, to be wrong. Some men claim it to be so, but there is no proof. Only one theory after another. Look at what you said, "God is the author of all truth" not God and men. Man's so called truths can never outweigh God's

There are no "known facts" that contradict the Bible. A lot of men wish there were. That would make for a nice slap in the face to Christians. Unfortunately for them it isn't true.

To be honest with you, I don't see how you can claim to be a Christian and believe this. I'm not trying to question you Bengal, I just don't get it. To say that ordinary men were responsible for the Bible and it's contents completely destroys what the Book is meant to be. I believe that the Bible is the Holy Word of God. That He is responsible for each and every word in it.

I believe that the Bible has stood the test of time and translations. God would not allow his most sacred gift to men to be changed by anyone. Translations are required in order for the word to reach everyone. We still translate it today when introducing it to areas that have never received it. I believe that God protects the Bible and it's meanings have not changed.

But your stated belief would require that you constantly question if God inspired a certain statement or the man who penned it. You would spend your time trying to separate what is real from what is symbolic. I don't have this problem. If it is written, then it is true. I do not question it or the sincerity of the man who placed it on paper. The authors of the different books were simply tools of God. The Bible says so. Therefore it is.

Salty, can I buy your cliffnotes? :hihi:

No, that's cheating.

i agree with salty to some extent. any of you that are christian are exactly as crazy as he is. at least he goes ahead and really believes the living crap out of the bible and not just randomly chooses whatever parts he likes and thinks that will get him to heaven. if i was christian, i would solidly be in salty's corner.

the rest of you should consider you own beliefs when you talk. those of you are not bible literalists. is what you believe any less insane or magical? sure, you dont believe in the snake or the earth being only however old. but even the most basic premises of christianity are so stupid as to be embarassing.

how can you say to salty that he is crazy for believing stuff against the evidence if you are christian? believing in madness is the whole point of christianity. honestly, salty is just better at being christian than the lot of you.

He fully understands that fact. Since nobody can know exactly how old rock formations are, and we can only base our radiocarbon dating tests against the known age of certain materials (Explain the wood from a tree example!!!!!) then the method used is inherently flawed.

Your example is contradictory at best and hilarious at worst. You just admitted that the "evolution" (read: controlled species development) of dogs was controlled by humans. Not exactly a natural process as it were.

Of course you refused to address the other salient points of the article such as the facts of mutations and genetic errors not having the possibility of adding any information, only deleting information.

I am a Christian because I believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God who died for our sins. All else are peripheral issues. And yes, the men who wrote the Bible were ordinary men. Inspiration does not make them more than what they are. It did not give them ESP or supernatural knowledge of the universe. What God's inspiration gave them was insight and allowed them to see the human condition in a fresh light.

There is no truth that contradicts the truth of the Bible. But to discerne the truth you have to be able to distinguish God's Word in the Bible from the surrounding literary matrix. For example, take the story of Jonah. The story is not about a whale (or a "big fish" as the story describes the animal). It is about the universal character of God's forgiveness. That's God's Truth; not the fish. The "fish" was just a literary device to get Jonah from the water to on shore. The author never intended, nor did he expect, anyone to take the fish story literally. By focusing too much on the fish, we neglect the real point of the story. That is the danger of taking the Bible too literally.

But if you want to believe the universe was made in 6 days and the earth is 10,000 years old, go ahead. The truth is so obvious that if you don't wnat to accept it, there is probably little anyone can do to convince you. I understand fundamentalism from an emotional standpoint, but not from an intellectual standpoint because it ignores too much that cannot rationally be ignored, and refuses to ask questions. I encourage you to challenge yourself by studying the Bible using the tools of modern biblical exegesis. St. Anselm defined theology as faith seeking understanding. A strong faith is not a blind faith; it is a faith that is constantly seeking understanding and asking questions. God always speaks to us in a language we can understand; sometimes that language is that of science.

That's only half of the story. How are we supposed to live in this world if that's the end of the story? Jesus wants be all that HE is to all that you need. HE IS so much more than just getting yourself into heaven.

Romans 5:9-11

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. (10) For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (11) And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
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How can you or anyone else claim to know which of the Bible is to be taken literally and which is to be taken figuratively?

I understand your reasoning Bengal and can appreciate it. You stated the truth. You said that you are a Christian because of your faith that Jesus was and is the son of God and his death on the cross is our salvation. It's just the details prior to that we disagree about. :grin:

God is all powerful right? Are you saying that God could not have used a large fish to transport Jonah from the sea to shore? Are you saying that God was not capable of creating the world in just six days? Since God said it, and I believe God to be all powerful, I have no reason to seek reason in His statements. My beliefs do not require a scientific model to prove their legitimacy.

I said that I would address Adam's children, their wife's and families. I know that you have most likely heard this before. Please note that this is the simple version.

Today we know that having off spring with our close relatives has the potential to produce undesired effects on the development of the child. This is due to our genetic make up. I believe, and God says, that Adam and Eve were created as perfect human beings. They had no "genetic" flaws. When God vanquished them from the Garden, their bodies immediately began to break down.

Now, we know that changes in genetic make up takes time. Anyone that has breed dogs knows what I'm talking about. The first generation is good. The next is good just not as good as the first. As the breeding continues the chances of getting undesired effects increases.

Adam and Eve had more children than just Cane and Able. I'd name them here but that world require research and I'm short on time. Some of those children were female. Here is were some Christians have a problem with this. These brothers and sisters married. They reproduced. Yes, this is a sin today. Why is it a sin, because God told Moses, many years after Adam, that it was a sin. By the time of Moses, the genetic make up of our bodies had deteriated to the point that close family marring each other had the potential to produce genetic mutations. At this point, God stopped it. Again, since Adam and Eve were perfect humans with no flaws, their children then also were nearly perfect humans with no genetic flaws. As time progressed, cousins were marring cousins, so on and so forth. No where in the Bible, prior to Moses, does God say it is wrong for this to happen.

We cannot look at this from the strict confines of our beliefs and feelings on this subject today. It was a process. God's process. It is why we believe that we are all brothers and sisters and can trace our lineage back to Adam and Eve.

The theory of intelligent design does not necessarily have to be attached to religion to be considered to have potential validity.

Human beings utilize the laws of science to create and/or manipulate what is around us every day.

To say that humans are capable of creating a jet aircraft by using intelligence, and then turn around and say that some other form of intelligence would find it impossible to create something biological is pretty biased.

If intelligence exists in one form, it is certainly possible to exist in other forms.

If the universe is a purely scientific forum, humans prove that intelligence is possible.

To deny that intelligent design is possible, is to deny our own existance.