Integration at Southern and LSU, Should we keep trying?

you realize of course that is the personal choice of people that has created this segregation right?

 

Lottery,
Money can't solve every issue including segregation.
Thats one of the democrats problems, they think money can solve everything.

 

Red 55, you just said so much crap i can't figure out where to start. Well, from the beginning.

LSU offers a tougher degree that intimidates black students. Come on, LSU isn't a bad school, but it's not like it is Harvard or even Florida. It's a Tier 3 school. No black kid believes LSU is that hard and I've heard numerous stories of black kids saying how ridiculously easy LSU is. The perception black kids have of LSU is the problem as it relates to being a friendly atmosphere and also of course it is known as a party school which isn't receptive to parents. Southern has had a white SGA president, so what. That now magically solves the problem. The fact is LSU is still 90% white.

They are perceived as diploma factories, WHAT. I can sit here and name several successful business people, scientist, teachers, politicans, exc. who received degrees from Southern and Grambling. I think any Southernite would compare their track record to LSU. The truth is Southern has a lower average ACT score than LSU, not by much b/c both scores suck compared to other schools. The fact is that Southern and LSU serve different purposes. Rather than just being a school for high ACT test takers, Southern allows students who have good academic backgrounds in inferior systems to come to school there. So, while a student at Southern might have an ACT score 17, he probably has a 3.5. He did what he could, but wasn't taught everything he was needed. Southern works with these kids and make them successful and employers absolutely respect that. On the other hand, LSU students usually have better backgrounds and while some were top notch students, many were not.

Honestly, I think you proved my point. He was able to get into Harvard after getting a master's degree. Sounds pretty succesful.

You are right. Southern fans were wrong for this. But from the stories about this situation this kid didn't have the personality of a person that would be successful in the position he was in. Personally, I liked the kid and thought he was a good quaterback. The dislike didn't stem from him being white, but from the fact he took the spot of Sam George, a wildly popular quaterback. Black quaterbacks at Southern were antagonized, booed, and treated badly if they weren't performing. Southern fans were wrong but the situation wasn't all about race as it was made to be. You don't think Herb ever faced a racial insult. I would bet he had.

What higher admission standards. I love LSU and have always been a huge fan but when we debate, state facts. You can get into LSU with a 17 on the ACT. It's not a Tier 1 school. Southern has created 9 programs to attract white students. Do you know how much those programs cost. They have made an effort. But they suffer from a perception by whites that it is inferior. The basis of the opinion is completely flawed. Is Southern an awesome school, no. It is a good average school that excels in areas and lacks in others just as LSU does. Every teacher who now graduates from Southern has passed the exam b/c it's required. I've never heard of loads of students failing the bar so show me some facts. Even ambitious white students avoid LSU if they have other opportunities.

Neither Southern or LSU are where they need to be. Diversity is essential for success in academics as well as athletics. It is also important for unity in a country so widely divided.

 

This is another person's point of view. NOT MINE



Well before I really get into this let me just say..that whoever posted this is seriously skewed and selective in thier memory on a few issues. The article was slanted and the response has only further slanted the issue. But converesly, some things highlighted need attention.

"LSU offers many things to black students and many have attended. Its tougher to get a degree from LSU and this intimidates many black students. But the ones who come here have suceeded very well. A black women recently received one of the nations highest honor scholarships for post-graduate study. LSU, with a 90%-plus white majority has elected TWO black Student Government association presidents. One was in the 1970's when LSU was just a few years out of segregation. There are opportunities for black achievers at LSU, not just in sports."

I have a degree from Southern University and my husband from LSU So I have a little personal insight into this...

First off, LSU is not a tougher school. Every school has its tough departments, but overall that's a falsehood and a broad misconception. I took classes there and they were no more challenging (some much less challenging than thier Southern counterparts). It is a broad misconception simply because it is a PWC. My husband, an engineer, went to LSU because of his perception that that degree carries more weight. Perception is really what all this is about...because today you'd be hard pressed to find serious diffences in curriculum or instruction between the Universities. That said, I applaud the black students at LSU, while at the same time I look at them as somewhat brainwashed because they percieve what is untrue and play into that perception. (generally speaking, that is.)

Since you mentioned the black SGA Presidents, you should also note that [(of those 2 black SGA President, Kirk (and some other dude)], the Black student center was trashed after one of thier elections....because some LSU Students STILL (in the 90's) didn't think having a black SGA president was such good idea. That one act speaks volumes...
I've personally known people who were disciminated against by faculty and students at LSU, so don't try to paint the picture that LSU is so evolved. That just isn't true either(although the institution has come along way).



"Sothern and Grambling suffer from two things. They are perceived as diploma factories, whose degrees are not respected in the real world. Also they treat white students with less courtesy than black students are treated at LSU. It's sad but true that racism exists in a big way in the black colleges. Ask any white student who attended."

Diploma factories? Perception again...and a equally misguided one. I can't speak about how white students are treated except to say that I never saw any such instance but I allow for the posibility...although I should say that attitudes on the yard are pretty bad to everyone. That may not be a white thing. But I can certainly see how a white person could think it's personal. I always took it personal.

I friend of mine got a masters degree at Southern in the 1980's to improve his chances of promotion in his government job. It was easy and affordable. So many people laughed at his degree, that he later spent the money to go to Harvard for a Masters in government administration to get the respect that any masters degree should have gotten him.
Maybe that had more to do with your friend than his degree.

Personal experience: I have never had a problem getting a Job and I worked in The White House above people from PWC's that had Masters' (and I didn't even have my BA at the time). My husband, despite his equally high GPA and LSU degree couldn't find a job in Louisiana. That degree doesn't mean a thing if you're still a black man.

"A few years ago Southern started a white quarterback who was sucessful on the field. The coach was pressured to replace him by alumni because "Southern needs a black quarterback". They have used white kickers for years, but could not stomach a white quarterback. The coach stood by him, but the white QB eventually transferred because of the way he was treated by fans and teammates. All this time Herb Tyler was starting at LSU and was a wildly popular black QB."

This is no different anywhere where a historical majority exist. I'm not saying is should happen(it shouldn't)...but it does. Again, you have cleverly sidestepped LSU's history on this issue. LSU's black QB's have always been replacments...that they were hoping to replace. LSU has used black runners for years too but people had to get hurt for Yohan(sp?) Davey and Marcus Randall to play. A while back, that's the reason DiNardo was fired. I know this to be true. DiNardo wanted to put the best people in each position which meant alot of black guys. LSU Alumni didn't appreciate some of his key black appointments. They said....bye to Dinardo! As for Southern, it shouldn't happen there either..but I don't know that it did. From what I remember Jacoby, was happy but wanted to go somewhere else (I also remember he had a nice family). If that was the real reason, that's equally as sad.

"LSU is attracting black students, despite higher admissions requirements because it offers them something. Southern has offered very little to attract white students and has done little with the ones it has. Southern graduates pass the teachers exam and the Bar with astonishing low rates. While it is important to get more black people in college and send them out with degrees, Southern must improve many things before it is going to attract significant numbers of serious white students. Even the ambitious black students avoid Southern if they have any other opportunities."

I seriously resent the implication that "ambitious black students avoid Southern". That's just a lie! I can't even offer you half creidt on that one. Black students that play a sport and want a national podium and to be treated like kings & queens....go to LSU. I'm not mad with them either. Those other black students..the ones in college for acedemic reasons usally chose LSU for the same perception you flooded your post with. Not for any real reason.

Again Personally: I'm certianly ambitious and I had plenty of other oppurtunities and chose Southern. I also won debates against Harvard, Yale, Alabama, LSU and anyone else they put in the debate room with me. Succeding in changing perception everytime I entered a room.

The perception among people that certain university's are better than others will persist...but in the larger scheme of things, niether LSU or Southern are percieved on the level that this really matters anywhere outside of Louisiana (and the schools that are...are pulling further away in perseption by the day). In Louisiana this racial disparity will persist because of our cultures. Period. We are more polorized now than 20 years ago. I can't think of anything that will change it. Any suggestions on a solutions???


I said all that to say....tell both sides or don't say anything.
Southern has to improve the number of teacher and bar exam
percentages if nothing else but sometimes politics play into that
as well. Reguardless, were it not for Southern and other HBCU's
we would still be locked out of alot of society. Honor and respect
that, when you go the LSU or any PWC that will now admit you.

One of the law professores told a story about when a student who
took the law exam and called to get there results. She was only asked
what school she was from(not her name of ss#)...when she replied LSU
the operator simply told her she pased without asking her her name.
I'll never forget that story.

 

yuor whole argument is based on the incorrect assumption that diversity has some value. it doesnt.

lets say i was paid big money to put together a marathon running team that would win the world championships. not only would i not choose any whites, i would not choose any blacks that were not from kenya or ethiopia. my hiring practices would be really racist. and i would win the world championship easily. i would care about merit, not race.

the assumption that diversity in and of itself has merit, is frankly, pretty damn stupid.

skin color is a completely arbitrary and useless thing to pretend has value if it is diverse. it is like if you told me you thought a university needed more people who were left handed, as if that matterered. you want smart people or good athletes or whatever, and skin color isnt a qualification, positive or negative. and as long as pople think like you, judging people by race, i will be amused when they complain about the very racism they help perpetuate.

so i ask you, what about diversity is good?

 

i wont give you my speech on urban legends, i will spare you that. but i will tell you this story probably never happened.

 

As I recall, Bill Clinton was more concerned with "diversity" than actual job
qualifications when he put together his first Cabinet. That bunch turned out to be possibly the biggest pack of incompetent bozos to ever hold Cabinet-level positions simultaneously.

 

Thats in your humble opinion, GMan. IMO, Clinton did an awesome job. Also, I believe if Bush would follow the advice of his better cabinet members( Powell and not Rumsfield ) he would be in a lot better predicament. Martin, first he was responding to the stories red told. So, criticize red also. You keep living in your secluded shell and tell yourself diversty isn't important. Diversity is good for 2 reasons. We all excel at different things as people not races. There are whites faster and more athletic than blacks and vice versa. Same in academics. Our cultures are very different. A mix of all is what we call a melting pot and thats what makes us so different as a country. The second reason is to eliminate hate. Hate leads to people being irate. It causes trouble and violence. Look at Israel and Palestine. We need understanding among cultures. The most successful people understand and respect every culture.

 

my "secluded shell" is the most diverse community in the world. in my building in jersey city NJ, there are people that speak roughly 20 different languages. i know diversity.

you cant make people not hate each other with forced diversity. i told you this before, we are going in circles. forcing diversity on people creates resentment. i wont argue this because i suspect you already know it, but dont like to accept it.

?

isnt that a point for my argument? listen to yourself.

right, so why dont we choose people based on skill rather than race? man this is simple. why dont we see actual merit as merit, rather than race as merit?

look. i know you understand. but you are too married to the personal politics you were taught and believed when you first heard them. or else you are too self-reighteous to be rational. either way, if you cant see truth for what it is, it is unfortunate. race or "diversity" is of no value. people are talented or smart or athletic, or they are not. a university is best served by recruiting people without using skin color as a qualification.

or maybe you just want free rides for your people.