I'm seriously considering voting for Obama...

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by CParso, Sep 25, 2008.

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  1. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    This is the myth being spread. Nobody is talking about giving handouts to people who don't work. There is less than 5% unemployed in this country. The gap is not between the rich and the working poor, the gap is between the rich and the middle class. Why do you need to carry their water?

    The rich are taking OUR money the way the rules are right now..
     
    red55, Oct 22, 2008
    #311
  2. gumborue

    gumborue Throwin Ched

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    i still dont see the point. i agree with you, but so what? does this mean there should not be welfare for idiots or disabled or a single mom? i dont think anyone here has ever argued for welfare for capable people. like i posted before, it should just protect children and try to make the bottom less crappy.
     
    gumborue, Oct 22, 2008
    #312
  3. LSUMASTERMIND

    LSUMASTERMIND Founding Member

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    Must hard line conservatives dont agree with that much welfare. However, they do agree for welfare for a guy who made 30 million last year, because him and his company phucked up and bought default credit swaps. Or maybe thats innovative, coming up with 2 trillion ways to leverage a dollar, which in the end defaults. Then they have to file for bankruptcy. I guess welfare for guys like that is ok.
     
    LSUMASTERMIND, Oct 22, 2008
    #313
  4. gumborue

    gumborue Throwin Ched

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    its because the conservatives dont see these business-types sittin on a porch with a brown bag.

    they also rail about responsibility for homeowners getting foreclosed on, but say nothing about businesses or investors that can file for bankruptcy for their property they cant afford. makes me want to puke.
     
    gumborue, Oct 22, 2008
    #314
  5. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    But you're not rich either, unless you make seven figures a year. Most of us make a good living, amigo. Most of us are self made, too. I can understand why you want to distance yourself from the poor, but the gap in tax relief puts the middle class on the same side as the poor.

    I think a progressive tax (where the wealthiest pay a higher rate) is best and has always been a part of the tax code since it was begun. I would consider a flat tax fair, but only if it eliminated all tax loopholes, evasions, deductions, depreciations, offshore tax havens, etc. But the regressive tax that you advocate (where the wealthiest pay less than the middle class) is inherently unfair.
     
    red55, Oct 22, 2008
    #315
  6. Bandit88

    Bandit88 Old Enough to Know Better

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    Government is there to protect and assist, not to support. Contraception and abortion are available. Free schools are available. Governmental assistance to disabled folks is and should remain available to some reasonable level.

    It boils down to a breakdown in personal acceptance of responsibility. Victimhood. You can say it aint so, and I know for a fact it is so. I have a family full of it and I'm not by any stretch of the imagination in an uncommon situation.

    To answer your question more directly: scrap the whole thing and start over. (pipe dream, will never happen). Nothing for nothing. You want money and food, here's a job - if you don't show up, you're fired and no food. We've started down that road. But only a step or two and now we'll be going backwards.
     
    Bandit88, Oct 22, 2008
    #316
  7. Bandit88

    Bandit88 Old Enough to Know Better

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    First of all, compared to my family, I'm rich. Your definition is arbitrary at best. Secondly, I may not be rich, but that's besides the point. Poverty in America is both a misnomer in many cases and also largely by choice (personal actions or lack of actions).

    First of all, I attend family events with the poor. So, no, I'm not distancing myself from anyone. Second of all, "the gap in tax relief" is double-speak for the lack of redistribution of wealth. Third of all, the middle-class is huge, poorly defined, and has no clue (in general) what either side of the spectrum is doing/thinking/dealing with. Only socialists and communists think that the "middle-class" has the same "interests" as the "poor". Why would taxpayers share economic interests with folks who contribute nothing to the economy yet drain their paychecks? They don't.

    Standard Red tactics. :lol: Instead of commenting on what I've been saying, you put words in my mouth and then comment on what would be more useful to your arguments. Bad debating, Red. And very transparent.

    I've never commented on a regressive tax policy at all. In fact, even though you didn't ask, I'd support getting rid of all income tax and be in favor of sales tax. If you buy, you pay. If you don't buy, you don't pay. What you earn is yours, and you choose how to spend it. The only addendum to that would be some kind of road usage tax to pay for infrastructure improvements - commerce would pay the largest part of that, which should stroke your "progressive" heart strings.
     
    Bandit88, Oct 22, 2008
    #317
  8. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    This election will illustrate how wrong that is. You underestimate the middle class.

    You ignore facts constantly. We have less than 5% unemployed in this country, many of them simply between jobs. Everybody is working and contributing to the economy. The "poor" are just working at low-paying jobs. These jobs are vital to us, we need many maids, yardmen, garbagemen, lettuce pickers, and janitor. They do not drain your paycheck. The middle class are like them because we do not get the tax breaks for the wealthy.

    The Bush/McCain tax cuts constitute a regressive tax policy. You support it, do you not?
     
    red55, Oct 22, 2008
    #318
  9. mobius481

    mobius481 Registered Member

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    This is total Crap (yes that's a capital "C")

    The people you talk about jump around from part time job to part time job because they aren't dependable and can't hold the job down. They don't show up, don't work hard etc. If you work hard, show up on time, do what you're supposed to do, you will get a full time job and will eventually make $8-$10 an hour. I don't care how stupid you are.

    You answered your own question. It's ideological. The truth is the system is abused. Is it a drop in the bucket when this person doesn't have money or health insurance then has to have someone save their life because they have a massive heart attack. Is it a drop in the bucket when they pay no taxes yet take advantage of free schools, healthcare, infrastructure, etc? The problem is, you don't see the whole picture, just the 8 bucks an hour for the poor guy who can't keep a job because he's unlucky. If that were the case, that's what unemployment and welfare are for, and I agree with that. Unfortunately, they can't keep a job because they don't take care of their business and then become a burden on society, and we allow it.
     
    mobius481, Oct 22, 2008
    #319
  10. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    And millions of Americans are doing just this and you despise them. A hard-working janitor or food-service worker that you describe making $10.00 an hour equals $20,000 a year.

    Then subtract:
    $500 a month rent for cheap apartment = $6,000
    $250 for a used car note = $3,000
    $15 a day for food for family of three = $5,400
    $200 a month for utilities = $2,400
    $100 a month for miscellaneous needed expenses = $1,200
    $100 a month for clothing = $1200
    ​
    That leaves only $800 a year to set aside for savings. Not much eh? This is no-frills living, too. No computer, no internet, no cell phone, no cable TV, not much for cigarettes and liquor for sure. In this rough example, I haven't even deducted Social Security and Medicare from the $20K, but his employer would.

    Taxing this person 25% would bankrupt him.

    Now, take a guy making $2,000,000 and tax him at 25% and he's got $1,500,000 and his lifestyle is barely impacted by the tax. He's achieved the American dream and he can afford to pay for it. He's not paying the janitors tax, he's paying a millionaires tax because he's enjoying the benefits of life in America more than the janitor does.
     
    red55, Oct 22, 2008
    #320
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