Historical evidence of Pontius Pilate and Jesus...

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by flabengal, Feb 27, 2005.

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  1. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    No, I went out of my way to make the point quite clear. You just don't like it much. It is only your claims of existing physical evidence that I am challenging.

    At least two other jews were executed by the romans on the same day, according to your favorite source. Don't you imagine many thousands of Jews were executed by the Romans at this time?

    Well, I'm not an atheist. Likely an agnostic, but I don't give half a damn what any other agnostic thinks. I was raised a Baptist. Perhaps I am a Bapnostic.

    I repeat . . . one more time. I don't deny Jesus' existence. I deny your assertion that there is physical historical and archaelogical evidence proof of it. You remember, . . . the claim you haven't proven yet. I even spotted you Pontius Pilate. You are still evading this issue, amigo.
     
    red55, Feb 28, 2005
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  2. flabengal

    flabengal Founding Member

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    Earlier you conceded the last two points and you were generous enough to concede the point on Pontius Pilate.

    The writings of Josephus, the Babylonian Talmud and the fact that Chrisitanity was so wildly successful, including the conversion of St. Paul and later the Emperor Constantine seem to be "powerful circumstantial" evidence if you ask me.

    I don't understand what your asking for. The historian Josephus was a contemporary and he wasn't a believer.

    Once again you require a level of proof that is really not possible to produce.
    They didn't have email, film or whatever else you guys expect. The do have word of mouth, writings from contemporary independent sources, writing from contemporary believing sources and the world-wide effect of the man's existence. To deny that that is enough evidence to reasonably believe he existed is just being stubborn, in my opinion. How about the Druids do you believe they existed? Someone built stonehenge.....it looks remarkably like it had something to do with astrononmy (as far as I know, I'm not that famalier with it). Why is it so hard to take a look at that and say the people who built it were probably fairly intelligent and used the site to mark the time, etc. According to you we would have to have documents to be able to make that assertion. It just seems you set the bar just out of reach every time. I don't see how human being can function with that mindset.

    .
    There's nothing evasive about it. Josephus is a credible source. Why do you discount him? Other historians, professionals mind you, accept it....
     
    flabengal, Feb 28, 2005
    #32
  3. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Nobody challenged those earlier points you made. I only challenged the one that was wrong.

    Josephus was born in AD 37. Jesus , according to scholars died in AD 27 at the earliest and AD 36 at the latest. Although a very early historian, Josephus was not a contemporary and was writing about what he heard, not what he saw.


    Exactly. Little true evidence likley ever existed and none has survived if it did. What I've been saying all along is that it imposible to know because the physical historical or archeological evidence doesn't exist, not that it couldn't be true. Neither of us know. That is my point.

    Well, I think you match me in stubborness. I don't object to you having a reasonable belief he existed. I've said that all along. It is the historical proof that you maintain exists that I challenge. I hate to send you to the dictionary, but I don't think you understand the definitions of contemporary or evidence or why hearsay is not evidence. Or for that matter, why tradition is not history.

    And others challenge Josephus; his credibility has been questioned for centuries. Most think he was accurate about many things and inacurrate about others. Moreover he couldn't have been to all of the places reported upon. He worked from sources, some of them quite good and others quite bad. This is a well-balanced link on the subject. The Credibility of Josephus.

    Look, Josephus may be right and had a first-hand, accurate source. We can believe him but it is impossible to know without proper evidence.
     
    red55, Feb 28, 2005
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  4. flabengal

    flabengal Founding Member

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    Ok, Red, I guess we'll have to settle on this comment:

    That's fine with me. I have to add, however that I said there is powerful circumstantial evidence for Jesus. I never said there was physical proof. I guess my point is that scientists/archaelogist/scholars don't really debate whether Jesus existed. They used to but almost all but the most rabid skeptics have moved onto whether the accounts of his teachings are accurate or not...once again, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any scholars really trying to argue that point anymore. Anyway, battle fatigue has set in for yours truly. I'm going to go have some ribs and a few beers. I wish the participants in these threads well.
     
    flabengal, Feb 28, 2005
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  5. xlnsports

    xlnsports Cajun In Exile

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    Ok i Usually stay out of these but i see validity in both sides. I don't think Christians are afraid of death ( least i would like to belive so) Actually many accounts of amazement of the early christians by historians who talk of how they enticed the lions in the arena to become fodder. ( found in "cost of discipleship by Bonehoffer") . i loved to debate as much as the next person and i often lurk on this site a read all the banter but to me it boils down to this : i know what kind of person i was before i became a Christian and i know what kind of person i am now. my father was not a religious man but after he saw how i changed it made him a toughned old CPO from the navy stop and re evaluate his life. I dont find the need to defend my stance but will gladly discuss anything with anybody. just keep it civil and don't tease me too much about my deplorable use of typing and the english language.
    :) :) :)
    P.S. many of you have very sharp minds and my college days are far behind so take it easy on me.
     
    xlnsports, Feb 28, 2005
    #35
  6. xlnsports

    xlnsports Cajun In Exile

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    Actually that sounds like a person who bases their "spirituality" on emotions (many do) but to base your belief with the ebb and flow of your happiness or saddness is not a smart thing. Outside things can have a influence on your demeanor but should not influence your beliefs. gotta go and play with my magic 8 ball.... JK :hihi:
     
    xlnsports, Mar 1, 2005
    #36
  7. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Fair enough.

    Well, you didn't stay settled very long. Lets see. . . were you not the one who said
    ?

    But there are plenty willing to challenge claims of the existence of physical evidence, which was the only point I was arguing.
     
    red55, Mar 1, 2005
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  8. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    An open mind and the ability to see both sides of an issue is the key to enlightenment, Grasshoppa.

    Welcome to the debates.
     
    red55, Mar 1, 2005
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  9. xlnsports

    xlnsports Cajun In Exile

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    Thanks Red hopefully i can articulate as well as some of you master debaters :wink: .
     
    xlnsports, Mar 1, 2005
    #39
  10. Sourdoughman

    Sourdoughman TigerFan of LSU and the Tigerman

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    I would say that its just the opposite.
    This country has been going downhill ever since we quite teaching creation
    and some religion in schools, separation of church and state.
    I would say the rule of law has meant less and less everyday in this country
    since this has happened.

    The problem is when there is "no believers" and "no role models" for people they will do whatever they want to do without an ounce of guilt.
    Lie, cheat, steal, kidnap, molest, kill, U name it!

    No one can convince me that this country is better off today than in the 70's,
    or just 10 years ago.

    This is the problem with a "weak" justice system and no morales, believe it or
    not but where there is morality their is god.
    Meantime Brent J Brents and other monsters created will continue to kidnap
    kids and adults and kill them as well.
    People like this should never have been released from prison.
     
    Sourdoughman, Mar 1, 2005
    #40
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