Get ready for Bush's new war....

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by mesquite tiger, Nov 18, 2004.

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  1. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Sourdough, I'm completely with you on the US being the best and most generous superpower imaginable. Nobody is arguing that. I'm arguing that we don't always look that way from the outside. You say we liberate countries and give them back to the people. This is true, of course. We liberated Japan and Germany and they are free countries.

    But our opponents also see that we still have an army and an air force in Germany and thus a permanent military base in Europe. We still have a large miltary force in Japan after 60 years and now have a permanent military base in Asia. Ditto Korea and Okinawa. To the Arabs it doesn't matter that we plan to make Iraq a free nation. They figure once American forces arrive they will become a permanent military base in the middle east. To the Russians it doesn't matter that we are building missile defenses against North Korea. They know that such a system will also defend against Russian missiles based in Siberia and they feel threatened.

    Every action has a reaction and it is important to understand the consequences of our actions and how they are perceived by our opponents. We can bankrupt ourselves in this fight if we are not clever.

    I don't want to hit this too hard, since you guys seem to take any look from another perspective as criticism of the United States. But I can give you a long list of historical evidence of instances where the US acted like the Roman Empire. We have kept slaves, we have invaded and conquered neighboring countries and kept the land, we committed genocide against native people, we station troops all over the planet, etc. etc. I could go on . . .

    Of course our virtues far outweigh our faults. Even our enemies seem to realize that. But we tend to see only the virtues and they tend to see only the faults. I just don't understand why some of you don't want to recognize that our enemies as well as our allies often see our actions differently than we do. It's important to get inside these guys heads to have any hope of winning the situation.

    I'm not bashing the US here. I'm trying to understand the enemy.
     
    red55, Nov 19, 2004
    #21
  2. Sourdoughman

    Sourdoughman TigerFan of LSU and the Tigerman

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    I do understand what your saying but its too bad when these countries get
    $$$ and handouts from the good ole USA or the Red Cross they should understand that while we do things in our best interest we also try and make
    the world a better place.

    I do understand where you are coming. :grin: :usaflagwa
     
    Sourdoughman, Nov 19, 2004
    #22
  3. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    you have got to be kidding me. the US and the roman empire couldnt be more opposite in the way they deal with the world. the best thing that can happen to a country is to be invaded by the US. countries that are actually imperialist, like britain france and russia are much much more like the roman empire, the only real comparison is that we are more powerful than anyone else. our behavior is basically 100% exmplary and totally different than the roman empire.

    repeat, the best thing that can happen to a country in trouble is to be invaded by the US. no country in history is even slightly as close to as good as the US. it is basically unthinkable, how good the US is, and how not like the romans we are. we dont even take places over, we invade them only to liberate them. it is amazing. it is stunning how non-imperialist we are.

    i dunno how you can compare the most imperialist thing, the roman empire, to the absolute least imperialist, US, even though we have to power to do whatever we want. especially considering that if any other country had as much as power as we do, they would be a thousand times as threatening.

    you make ridiculous comparisons, like having slaves. so stupid. lots of rich countries had slaves, hundreds of years ago. some countries have slaves today. why dont you compare sudan to the roman empire.
     
    martin, Nov 19, 2004
    #23
  4. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    No, you're kidding yourself. Have you ever read a history or geography book in your life? I'll give just the most glaring example. Mexico 1847. We invaded Mexico without provocation, sacked and occupied their capital and stayed until they gave up California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico. At Chapultepec where the Mexicans made their last stand with only the teenage cadets from their military academy, we slaughtered them. This incident is the Alamo, Pearl Harbor, and 9/11 combined to Mexicans. Do you really think they believe that "the best thing that can happen to a country is to be invaded by the US"? You can't show me one example of a conqured people who say that.

    Don't just take my word for it, do a googlesearch. Here's what the Brits think if you want many more modern examples:

    Rome, AD -- Rome, DC

    And these are our closest allies. You should see the comparison on Aljazeera.com.

    To go about feeling that the US is "100% exemplary" is to look at the world blindfolded. One can never understand the enemy with such a myopic, egocentric world view. Are we the most benevolent superpower ever? You bet your ass. But 100% exemplary? Give me a friggin' break. We have never been a colonial empire like Britain once was, but we are definitely a military empire as was Rome. The US has a military presence in 132 of the 190 nations in the UN.

    imperial -- adj.
    supreme authority, sovereignty, domination, or control.

    We may not claim sovereignty of this planet, but we surely have supreme military authority, domination, and control of most of it.
     
    red55, Nov 20, 2004
    #24
  5. Sourdoughman

    Sourdoughman TigerFan of LSU and the Tigerman

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    Lets Kill em all and take over the world!
    Not a bad idea that way there is plenty of stability for all Americans! :lol: :usaflagwa
     
    Sourdoughman, Nov 20, 2004
    #25
  6. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    thats because when we conquer, we give right back. did the romans do that?

    i dont care about the opinion of a liberal brit newspaper any more than i do fox news.

    hahahah.

    cmon, use your head. we arent talking about world opinion as portayed by the worst possible sources, we are talking about truth.


    if we are so imperialist, where are our colonies?

    ok, read slowly. the roman empire actually took places over and made them part of the roman empire. we don't. see how that works? is that a little too much for you to understand? we dont take over and keep places. we liberate them and them present them right back to the original owners. can you understand the difference? see, the roman empire takes places over, we do the OPPOSITE, we liberate places. we only take them over so that we can keep others from being imperialist. we are the absolute opposite. did you notice that after ww2 there was a difference between east and west germany? why do you think that is? try and figure it out. i will help you if you need assistance.

    cultural imperialism isnt imperialism. the world accepts american cultural and economical influence voluntarily, because they like our culture, and our huge economy is a great marketplace for them.

    the best possible thing that could happen to places like haiti and the sudan is that we invade them. because 10 years after we invaded, they would have a deomcratically elected government by locals. actually the best thing possible for haiti would be if we actually were imperialist like you claim and we made them the 51st state, but since we are not, they would have independence, freedom and democracy, the greatest possible gift you can give a country. thats what america does, we are the greatest country that ever existed, by a wide margin.
     
    martin, Nov 20, 2004
    #26
  7. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Well, now you're just trying to be argumentative and get in the last post which seems to be very important to you. I could argue at length that you don't compehend the difference between colonialism and imperialism. Or that you are re-stating points which I have already discounted. But, I tire of this.

    I gave you evidence to back up my assertions and challenged you to refute it with some examples that support your objections. You did not. Why not respond with some evidence rather than more of your tired old rhetoric? If not, I'm done with this topic, it's beginning to bore me.

    Now, get in your last word. See you on the next thread.
     
    red55, Nov 21, 2004
    #27
  8. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    imperialism: "The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations."

    we neither take territorial acquisition, nor do we establish economic or political control over other nations.

    i am aware you read an article in the guardian and are easily convinced of foolish viewpoints. the fact is the united states is not imperialist, does not take colonies, and returns sovereignty to the nations it liberates. the comparison of the US to the roman empire is a politically charged and very dishonest perspective, that anti-war types take in order to portray the US as dangerous and wrong. the example of the differences between east and west germany post ww2 really demonstrates the difference between the US and an imperialistic country. your apparent dismissal of the truth in order to portray the US as imperialistic is amusing and nonsensical.

    the simple fact that the US is the most powerful country on earth does not make it an empire, imperialistic or overly aggressive. if anything, the US is too defensive and passive. the bad guys in the world are doing their damndest to wake the sleeping giant, when all american wants is peace.

    you would see what imperialism is, if another country besides the US was the single superpower. the french, germans and british, now theirs is a history of conquering and colonialism. go to algeria, or niger, or india or vietnam. why do you think these countries have french-speakers or the remnants of british rule? how come there are no places like this with the traces of american occupation?
     
    martin, Nov 21, 2004
    #28
  9. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Repeating the same rhetoric is poor debate tactics when you've been challenged to provide some documentation or evidence to back up your statements. Of course there is none, so I understand.

    Adios.
     
    red55, Nov 21, 2004
    #29
  10. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    i need documentation to prove west germany was independent and different than east germany, because american does not keep captured land? i need documentation to prove japan and germany are not colonies of the US? i need documentation to demonstrate how countries like france try and dominate places like north africa, while the US tries to colonize nothing? i need documentation to show how places like india were colonized by the brits, while the US is colonizing nowhere? everyone knows that.

    besides, you offered me the last word, and yet you are still talking. at least i admit i like the last word.

    again, if the US is comparable to the roman empire, then where are the spoils of our conquered lands? where are our colonies? how come places we defeated are now soveriegn nations, not controlled by us? why are you spreading lies?

    it is incredible that the united states will send our own around the world, liberating people, killing murderous dictators, giving people back their own lands, at the expense of our dead, and yet you compare us to the roman empire. pathetic.

    just for a moment, think. think about the 1991 gulf war. we liberated kuwait, and even though we easily could have crushed iraq, we gave them years and years of chances to get their act together. finally after all these years we give saddam his long-overdue punishment, liberate his people and now we are accused of being the new imperialist roman empire? wow. the lengths people will go to with nonsense.
     
    martin, Nov 21, 2004
    #30
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