George Bush on illegal warrantless wiretapping

Ben Franklin once said that those who would give up liberty for security deserce neither. I tend to agree.

 

Sorry, but when dealing with an organization that flies planes into buildings full of civilians and perpetually plots to kill as many of us as they can, it cannot be called a "dialogue" or a "discussion". It's a war.

Older members know my favorite line: You can call a pig a horse, but it's still a pig.

 

Those polls are of Dem candidates only. If the Dems feel that strongly about Hillary Rodham, they are in BIIIIIIG trouble.

 

It is not a war, its a never ending conflict. If we give up liberties for this "war," we might as well forget we ever had those liberties.

 

discuss this issue long enough and somebody will inevitably bring up this quote. the last time this issue came up, i saw that the discussion had led us to it, so i posted my prediction that it was about to be posted, only i was a few seconds too late and you had already posted it.

it is overly simplistic and ridiculous. pat downs are a small violation of my liberty. but i submit to them because i do not want to be blown up. having my bags x-rayed and inspected is a minor violation of my liberty, i still understand the necessity of it and accept it. there are lots of way we have to sacrifice liberty for security, it is clearly a matter of degree.

i totally agree with sabanfan on this issue. people are out to murder us and we must find them out somehow. i do not believe that there is some conspiracy to find out my secrets or whatever, i am far more worried about being on a train that gets blown up., which to me seems entirely real and possible. that is far more scary than some phonetaps or warrants or whatever by government agents who dont give a damn about my business.

 

Here's where we differ, Red. "Over-zealous" spying is exactly what is called for. Even if that 1% were honest and innocent, what's the harm in having a conversation overheard if, for no other reason, than to rule them out? If their phones are tapped, there is a reason for wanting it done. Sure, the intelligence guys sometimes get it wrong, but, IMHO, every rock needs to be overturned because the scum they are looking for don't play by any rules. As far as taking advantage, politically, that benefits the party in power. If the Dems were in office, that same concern would be valid. Frankly, who cares, if we end up rooting out and killing the bad guys.

 

The difference is consent martin. I consent to be patted down to enter a football game, or to have my bag x-rayed to enter a government building. Those things are transparent and I have the option to not go to that game or enter that building. I do not consent to the NSA tapping my phone, and I think those that are fearful of us closing in on some Orwellian state are not without merit.

 

to live in a country without violence and chaos requires some sacrifices.

by being an american you are consenting to lots of losses of pure freedom. i think there are destructions of liberty far more oppressive that we should be worry about. i think taxes are much more oppressive than domestic spying. taxes crush you and you have to work like a turk to have your money taken from you, whereas wiretapping never affects you one tiny bit.

 

That last bit is not true at all. I don't know if the wiretapping affects me or not, but I can tangibly see the benefits of my paying taxes. I drive about 20,000 miles a year on interstates. I see the bad ass planes taking off at Dobbins Airforce base. I get mail. Not to say I like taxes, but the collection of them does effect me.