Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by Rex, May 6, 2005.
Touchy, touchy. Where did I mention you or anybody here on Tiger Forums specifically?
"THE COURTS"...there's an interesting term. Yes, yes, the courts must give their blessings to certain executions of the Patriot Act. However, these are not proceedings which are open to the public. As absurd as it sounds, post-search & seizure warrants are granted via 'secret courts' (if you read the link, you'll see that Ashcroft and Gonzales have admitted to this). People have had their property or business searched, completely unbeknownst them, because 'secret' warrants were issued in 'secret' courts...oh and that might be 'secretly' after the fact, as well.
Arrested? No. Scrutinized and surveilled? Absolutely. Happens all the time. I don't know about you, but that does not make me very comfortable.
SEE: above re: Our judicial system is flawed enough. The thought that such proceedings are carried out 'secretly' is very unsettling to me.
Funny thing is, proponents of the Unpatriot Act are always proclaiming about how they're willing to sacrifice these certain freedoms if it were to help prevent future terror attacks. There are two things wrong with that line of thinking:
First of all, if the terrorists 'hate our freedom', as W often asserts (which is really BS, but that's a different argument), then is it not a complete defeat to relinquish these freedoms in the name of prevention?
Second of all, it has been irrefutably proven that the authorities already had the capabilities to thwart 9/11 prior to the implementation of the Unpatriot Act.
I think the biggest irreconcilable difference between the opponents and the proponets is that the opponets don't see this as a necessary provision to prevent future terror attacks, and therefore call into question the alterior motives. Again, think, with just the slightest bit of skepticism, about the name 'Patriot', and the conditions underwhich it was hastily implemented.
So...your solution is....????
Solution to what? The Unpatriot Act? Let it expire. I doubt that's what you meant, but that's the only problem that I pointed out.
maybe we should tell the bad guys we are on to them before we do anything.
why is it you think the government is out to get ordinary citizens again? if i was a cop why would i waste time investigating you when i am trying to find terrorists?
useless rhetoric. they obviously didnt stop it. with hindsight you can stop plenty of things.
i dont care what the name of it is. i care about the specifics and realities of the patriot act. and i still havent heard anything disagreeable about it.
the word is "ulterior".
Maybe you need to get a clue as to how these things work. 'Bad guys' aren't notified of search warrants before they're executed. The ordinary tactics of search & seizure have worked for ages.
Easy. The government wants to control its people. It wants to know as much as possible about every citizen to more effectively exert that control. Have you already forgotten the 'big government' topic that gave rise to the discussion of the Unpatriot Act?
Explain how that is 'useless'. Let me make it so that you can understand it. They implemented the Unpatriot Act on the shoulders of 9/11, so that 'another 9/11' could be prevented. So tell me, why is it necessary to extend their capabilities when the ones currently in place would have done just fine had not valuable evidence and warnings been disregarded? No kidding that they didn't stop it. Their failure to stop it had NOTHING to do with their surveillance being limited. NOTHING. I'm not explaining this again.
Of course you don't care. And that's exactly what big government wants, for it's citizen's not to care.
I see you've resorted to the weakes argument tactic of them all. That comes as no surprise, being as you've offered very little in that sense outside of intermeddiately placed 'so whats.'
and wiretaps and secret searches have been going on for ages also. again i want a specific example of how somebody had their rights unfairly violated. where are the people who big brother has intruded upon? where are the normal fellows who are crying because the government knows what they checked out at the library? where are the specific wrongs? over and over i get generalities. where are the abuses?
they want power in the sense that they like big government programs and pork projects and wasteful crap. they dont want power so they can snoop around your business, they dont care about your business or mine. we are not criminals. politicians want money and adulation and fame and power to spend our money. they arent as interested in fake shakedowns and searches of regular peeps. they will take your money for sure, but they wont bug your phone. they dont care about you, they care about criminals.
9/11 happened, we needed better and more effective intelligence. you argue that we didnt need new laws, just better execution. fine. better laws will be fine with me also.
specifically what should i care about? your made up conspiracy? is the goverment tapping my cellphone and listening to me tell my friends what time we are scheduled to drink beer? are they intercepting my emails making fantasy baseball trades and arranging tennis matches? again i ask why the government would give a damn about what you and i are doing. because of a big bad conspiracy?
dont take it personally, just accept your lesson in word usage. dont act like a petulant child.
How do you know they aren't? :hihi:
I am humbled by the realization that I don't know everything.
You can prevent the government from tapping into your conspiracies by wearing a simple aluminum foil helmet.
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"Mandrake, I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids." -- General Jack D. Ripper