Yes I can. We all can. We live in a democracy, Sourdough! Why don't you understand this? It is because I support the military that I object to their being misused by this administration. I've never been anti-war. I'm anti-stupid war. We need to be getting ready to fight North Korea, who seems hell-bent on war. We need to be prepared to deter the continuing threat from China and Russia. The islamic nuclear missiles in Pakistan may threaten us some day. The radical islamists (thank you, Ashgeaux) are out there in over 3 dozen countries, mostly ruled by dictators, and we need to take them on in a smarter way than we did in Iraq. I've never supported Kennedy around here. Or pessimistic leftist wackos, either. Ted Kennedy is a chump that I wouldn't elect for dog catcher. I bashed Michael Moore along with everyone else. What I was defending was any American's right to free speech. Even Teddy. Even you, Sourdough. You haven't been paying attention to me. Well, I haven't been wrong yet. :grin: And you keep imagining things. Where have I said anything negative about the Iraqi vote? What I said was--the test of democracy is whether the first elected leader of Iraq submits to a new election in a few years . . . or whether he changes the rules to keep himself in power. You have made many posts to say that the US must stay in Iraq "until we win". Have we won now? Are we bringing the army home? No. So what are you crowing about?
The difference between Japan and Iraq . . . and it's a big one . . . is the cooperation of the occupied people. The Japanese were resigned to their defeat, did not fight an insurgent war, and cooperated with MacArthur to the point of veneration. We didn't lose a single soldier to guerilla insurgents in the Japanese occupation. The Germans were almost as cooperative. In both cases, the populations were well-educated, secular, unified, and smart enough to realize that the best way to get their country back on its feet and the Americans to go back home was to cooperate with the reconstruction. It worked splendidly for both parties. The only lingering problem is that our military is still there after 60 years, defending them from attack by their powerful neighbors when they actually have the resources to do it for themselves. Of course, nobody else in their neighborhood really wants to hear the sound of marching jackboots again. So it is a trade-off. The price of being a superpower. But these Iraqis are poorly educated, deeply religious, split into three major factions that have been fighting for centuries, and collectively just not very bright. Their country was not destroyed in the 21-day war, as were Japan and Germany. So what did they do first? They sacked and looted their own country and then blamed us for their problems. Since then they have set about blowing up power lines and pipelines, killing our troops, killing each other, and generally hindering all efforts to rebuild their country. And blaming us all the time. Misplaced pride is more important to them than good sense. If the Iraqis had cooperated like the Japanese, our military would probably have been gone by now and everyone would be working on their economy. But they have not and are not likely to burst out into a Jeffersonian democracy any time soon. Maybe never. The Iraqi people have not gotten with the plan and do not deserve the billions of dollars we are spending there. In fact they blow up as much of it as they can. The "good" Iraqis are not supporting us enough and they are not confronting the "bad" Iraqis at all. Unless the Iraqis miraculously become cooperative, this business will drag on endlessly. Think Palestine under Israeli occupation. Think India under British occupation. Think Vietnam. George HW Bush did. He said it best in his his 1997 memoir "A World Transformed" when he explained why he did not march on Baghdad in 1991: "Trying to eliminate Saddam ... would have incurred incalculable human and political costs... . We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq ... there was no viable 'exit strategy'. Had we gone the invasion route, The United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land." A bitterly hostile land indeed.
Man, I hate when people confuse the issues. I was never for the war in IRAQ, but now that we're there, we can't leave. If we did, in all likelyhood, a civil war would break out and for all we know and fundamentalist regime would rise to power and it would be worse then if we'd let Hussein stay in power. For the last time, Iraq had NOTHING TO DO with 9/11. Did they have some terrorist training camps? Probably, but they were irrelevant. Hussein had a firm control of EVERYTHING in that nation and would never allow them to put his reign at risk by staging attacks from there that could be traced back to his country. What I can't understand is why we didn' put this big build up in Afghanistan. That's where you try to build your democracy in the middle east. F**K Iraq. They were insignificant. All invading them did was de-stabilize the region, flood it with insurgents, and give ALL Muslims (moderates included) a reason to unite against the 'crusaders' because there was no reason to invade them. Even moderate Islamist are are siding with the fundamentalists for fear of being executed or because they believe the fundamentalists are the lesser of 2 evils. I understand the big picture. I just don't know why it was painted in Iraq instead of Afghanistan. Work there is not over. Furthermore, if people are worried about WMD's and nuclear proliferation, look no further than N. Korea. They have the ability and the willingness to sell enriched uranium to ANYONE if the price is right. Maybe not enough to build a nuclear weapon, but certainly enough to buld a dirty bomb. And that's all it would take to create a nationwide panic if a few of those were detonated in a couple of major citites. If anyone believe the war in Iraq is occupying terrorist so they can't strike here, then you are misguided. That's the type of thinking they want us to have so we'll let our guard down. :usaflagwa :911: :usaflagwa
Exactly. Whether the rest of you see it or not, Red 'gets' it - at least on this issue. Especially the point about Pakistan. Musharraf is one road side bomb away from being assassinated. If that happens, then in all likelyhood a Taliban-like government would be in charge of their nukes. I would rather have my build up of forces in Afghanistan actively hunting Bin Laden and ready to respond to this potential threat than trying to install a democracy in a country that does not pose one. Saying that though, it's too late to leave Iraq now.
fanatic, you chose your name well, you're drinking the liberal Koolaid with RED. all iraqi's hate us and are joining the insurgents, yadda yadda, yadda. ACTUALLY the truth is, our military is protecting enough of the Iraqi citizens to help them build an infrastructure. I work for a major utility company and some of our contractors just got back from there where ( with Iraqi help ) commisioned a new power co -gen plant and grid. I also do some free lance contract work on the side on my own, and It's been brought up several times the amount of "new" work that is going on in Iraq. They are building the infrastructure of the nation and building schools, only this time the education will include freedom and democracy. THAT is how we will win the WAR. not with bullets, with EDUCATION man. Syria hates that, as do other Islamic nations BECAUSE it threatens their gripe on the people, BUT just like the Berlin wall fell and communist Russia fell, democracy is contagious my friend, and will spread. Freedom and justice are forms of respect and sought after by all men. Some men in power refuse to accept this because as long as they keep the gen. populus under control, they further their power and riches. Freedom is costly and painful. Russia is having problems as did japan at first, but they don't want to go back and blindly follow a system of religious oppression or ruler tyranny. Ask them. They are there, you are not. and you will never understand until your freedom is actually threatned. that's what's up about you liberals, you will never get it or feel threatned until hitler or some wack job sends a scud missle right up your own a$$. It doesn't matter if Saddam had WMD or not. We have recued a nation of people who had no hope. We did that in WW2 with the jews. It was well worth it. It's never WRONG to do what is right. Look into the eyes of a small Iraqi child who is able to attend school and learn about freedom and go home and discuss this with their father and mother without reprisal or worry that Dad will be shot for talking about it and then tell me it isn't worth it. Was it worth it to free the slaves? Was it worth it to have the Berlin wall torn down? Was it worth all those years of cold war ( yes some troops died then too ) to see Russia finally become a democracy? Was it worth all those lives at Hiroshima and Nagaski to see Japan become the industrial giant and ally they are today? Well was it? it's the same deal. Oh u can argue that those were different but you'd be lying point blank, just like good old Ted was when he told his tale of Mary Jo
JSracingBBF, Lets not forget about the terrorist camps in Iraq, I don't remember anyone proving that these were false. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84291,00.html http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/iraq/1854928 http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/06/18/russia.warning/ Russia warned us about Saddam http://cshink.com/cyanide_salt_block_found.htm http://www.cfr.org/background/background_iraq_ties.php Red is flat wrong about Iraq for these reasons above and below. http://www.tigerforums.com/showthread.php?p=226934#post226934 Notice he did not respond at the end of the thread. I'm so tired of these people beating a dead horse to death but I did it for fanatic to check out, hopefully he will. Hell, I'm not crazy about us in Iraq either. If I could I would turn back time and have Truman as president today. I prefer to kill people and blow up things with air power and bombs instead of ground troops, we did it against Japan and it worked. I may be crazy but all it would take is the extermination of 1 country and the rest would fall in line. They started this Sh!t, we didn't, attack after attack against us then 9-11. Enough Said! I'm for saving Americans lives!! 1 more thing, It makes no sense for people to argue about these other countries with terrorists and then say we don't belong in Iraq when there were terrorist camps there. They say their were on terrorists in Iraq, ignoring these articles above. Its funny how terrorists were in every middle eastern country except Iraq, Isn't it?
Maybe you should've voted for Kerry twice? Seems to me you are coming from that point of view. Hey, if it was up to me Iran wouldn't exist along with Pakistan and a few others.
