Because you cannot underestimate the importance of having a Democracy smack dab in the middle of the middle east. If we cut and run, the opposition (read terrorists, insurgents, Iranians, Syrians and Saddam faithful) will be back running the place and murdering those that oppose them. If that was confined to Iraq, then, we could put on our blinders and act like it's not our problem But, it is our problem. The radical element of Islam is bound and determined to kill all of us. Getting a free nation in Iraq is a beginning to wiping out the terrorists. You can't hide behind the tree in your backyard, Red. There are no fences anymore.
Democracy will never work in the Middle East. We will be policing Iraq for years. It is not worth American lives, to try and liberate a people that have never been free to begin with. Question: What happens when a caged animal is given its freedom? It dies. There will always be fundamentalist and therefore there will always be terrorism. It is not our job as Americans to pay for Iraq, when the money could be spent better at home. I support GWB, but I think we where wrong to try and insert an America friendly democracy in the middle of "Hell".
We don't know that for sure yet. It's the only long-term solution that has been given. If it's the only possible solution we have to try it. They've had democratic elections in Palestine and Afghanistan, and in 1 hour, Iraq in under 3 months. That's democracy, them keeping it is the question. Ted Kennedy is a bastard. If I had any respect for him prior to this week it would all be gone now.
Hey guess what Red? Last time I checked, he was YOUR leader, too. Nobody's saying you have to like it, but it is what it is. At least respect the office if not the man.
If such a democracy could exist, I would be delighted. I completely understand what you are saying, SF, and agree to a certain point . . . but it's just not likely to happen. There is not a democracy anywhere in the Arab world, including our "friends" in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Jordan. Democracy may be basically uncompatible with islam. There are many examples where a third world country voted freely, then the elected leader arranges to keep himself in office permanently (Egypt, Zimbabwe, etc.). I fear we will see this scenario repeated in Iraq. In such a case, another strongman will soon be in power despite the lives and treasure we have sacrificed there. Ultimately it is not us that can go into a place and make them get their act together. They must do it themselves. This is a population that allowed Saddam to rule them for decades. He got them in a war with Iran that cost them a million lives, he killed thousands of his own people, then he managed to get himself in a shooting war with a superpower who humiliated him. GHW Bush really expected the Iraqi people to rise up and overhrow Saddam in 1991, but they did not. 26 million people cannot be ruled by a dictator and a few thousand henchmen without the acquiesence of the people. Until the Iraqis really want freedom and are willing to fight for it themselves, it just will not happen. And I never have advocated that we "cut and run". But I do think that eventually we will have to just leave because it is in our best interests to do so. Just like in Vietnam. Better sooner than later -- 8 years and 58,000 KIA's down the road. And still no democracy in Vietnam. I also disagree that this war in Iraq is somehow defending us from islamic radicals behind the trees in my backyard. Indeed, the war has just added to the hate that they have for us in the islamic world and has cost us the unprecedented international support for the War Against Terrorism that we had after 9/11. This war has contributed nothing to the fight against the real enemy (Al Qaida) and has actually weakened us militarily to the point that countries like Korea and Iran openly taunt us with nuclear weapons because they know we aren't likely to invade another country anytime soon. We are so caught up in this war that we are neglecting more important issues like the hemorraging of two billion dollars a day from our already indebted treasury, the weakening of our military in the face of other global threats like Russia and China (who are now conducted joint military exercises), . . . and the continuing need to eliminate Al Qaida.
The point is that he is not my beloved leader. I have great respect for the office, but very little for the current occupant. We live in a democracy in America. We don't have to give personal allegiance to a king or a fuhrer. That is the European way. Our allegiance is due only to the Constitution. I refute the point Sourdough is making that any criticism of George Bush's policies constitute treason and anti-Americanism. Hogwash. Democratic discourse is what has always kept this country on the tracks. Half the population of this country thinks that our foreign policy is derailed. Speaking up about it is a constitutional duty and obligation of citizenship.
If the War on Terror was just about Al Qeada you would be correct, but it's not. It's about killing Islamic fascists, some are members of Al Qeada some aren't. I would love another solution other than bringing democracy to the Midddle East, but no one has given one. If you kill or capture all members of Al Qeada there will still be other terrorists, and new members of Al Qeada will be born. If you bring freedom to the Middle East you will change a way of thinking. A thinking that doesn't blow themselves up or have a desire to kill Americans. Iran is about to get itself isolated, the Europeans are doing it. They won't be taunting after that.
We've already had this talk about the war in Iraq and why we went there. I've posted the information on 2 different threads, terrorist camps in Iraq, etc, you just chose to ignore the truth. As long as the democrats think like you about Iraq they will lose elections! Were there terrorist camps in Iraq? yes Did the Russians warn us that Saddam was going to try and attack us? yes About Ted Kennedy, I already made my case by him saying terms like quagmire and Bush's Vietnam. Sorry Red you can't support the troops and not support the war! Go ahead and take up for Teddy and every pestimistic leftist wacko out there. About Teddy, what makes a drunk with a law degree a genuis? The point is Ted has had everything handed to him on a silver platter. He never had to earn his keep the hard way the way average Americans do. Plenty of people have law degrees, Ted Kennedy would be just another one without the name and the family. I don't like the Kennedys, JFK might have been the best one out of all of them. Their daddy was a ganster and an appeaser like most Democrats seem to be anymore, he also admired Hitler, met with the German government on their own. We don't need people like this running our country, no thank you! Thank God there are a few sensible Democrats out there like Joe Lieberman and others. Voter turnout in Iraq was a success, you will continue to be wrong! :thumb: I don't think I would ever take up for a drunken crazy Dinosaur who don't know what its like in the real world! Talking about out of touch? See my sig
Shows how little you know about Harvard and the other Ivy League sh!t that's been going on... Supa...Do you realize that almost 80% of Ivy League graduates graduated "With Honors"? That Ivy League schools have been adjusting their courses to grade not A, B, C or D, but to just "pass or fail"...They've been doing it for years... Give me a break...Before you open your mouth, do at least a BIT of research...I also know that I never dogged out Bush, and I don't know about him...But, I know his father didn't pay mobsters to have inmates and dead people vote in Chicago... I also know-FOR A FACT-that his father had connections to Carlos Marcello, and Marcello was tied to Chicago. In exchange for the promise from Joseph that JFK and RFK would not go after organized crime if organized crime delivered him an election, they went after them anyway... Put the pieces together, and you'll realize that Carlos Marcello was the facilitator of Dallas...Call me crazy all you like, but the MOB got even with JFK for the double cross...Carlos Marcello took out JFK...From right here in New Orleans...
Referring to the Middle East as "Hell" and comparing their people and their liberation to animals and letting an animal out of a cage shows a WHOLE lot about just what is wrong with the mindset of a growing number of Americans. Don't ever refer to oppressed people as animals, man...It erodes your credibility quicker than the Louisiana coastline...and that's just what you did... I had given you some more credit than that...and if I'm not mistaken, you're a former or current member of our armed services, aren't you? Sad commentary...
