When you said Coptic I thought you were referring to the Coptic Catholic Church which is under the Pope. That is my mistake. There is a Coptic Orthodox Church as well, but it is grouped into the Greek Orthodox Church. Its Pope is not a supreme pontiff the way the Benedict the XVI is of the Catholic Church. The Coptic Pope is the Patriarch of Alexandria, but is under the Patriarch of Constantinople. The Constantine Bishop is the Primate of the East, and first among the other Patriarchs. The Coptic Church in whole was founded by the Apostle Mark. It fractured during the Latin/Greek Schism. Part of the Church remained Catholic, part aligned with the Greek Orthodox. Both the Coptic Catholic, and Coptic Orthodx Churches have valid sacraments. To say the Coptic Church predates the Roman Catholic Church could be both true ad false depending on how well you know your Church history. The Coptic Church does predate the Roman Church it in that the specific see of Alexandria was established before the Roman see. The Catholic Church though, as a whole, was founded by Jesus in Jerusalem in AD 33. The Latin Church is not the seat of the Church because of when it was founded, but rather because of who it was founded by. Peter was its first Bishop. Remember their are various rites in the Catholic Church. The Pope is the head of all of them all.
I think you're trying to have it both ways. Sorry. In any case, the point of my post is that there were certainly non Catholic churches before the reformation. Do you not agree? Well, this is a big, big stretch. You are looking for a "GET OUT OF JAIL FREE" card, amigo. By this definition, the Baptist fundamentalists, Mennonites, and Mormons are also Catholics. Perhaps I'll just let the racer argue this one. I was defending history, not religious philosophy.
The Coptic Church teaches essentially the same thing as the Catholic Church, and so does the Greek Orthodox. The Coptics and the Greek Orthodox are both Catholic Churches, just not Roman Catholic Churches. Part of the Coptic Church, and all of the Greek Orthodox are not in full communion with the Roman Church. They are still considered Catholic, they maintain the same Sacred Tradition, and all of their sacraments are valid. The point that I was trying to make is that there was no church that used the Bible as a soul rule of faith prior to the reformation as JS Racing states. The existance of different Catholic rites does not dispute this. The Coptics are not Roman Catholics, but they are Catholic. I guess part of that statement is partly faith. Orthodox Christianity, maintained by the Catholic and Orthodox churches is starkly different than the denominations that popped up after the Reformation. Post Reformation Christian denominations cannot trace their churches history to the Apostles. The Catholic Churches can.
If they had sprung up out of nowhere, this might be true, but since the protestant religions diverged from the Roman Church, they can trace their history from the same roots as you.
Some High-Protestant Churches like the Anglicans can trace part of their doctrine to the Catholic Church the sola scriptura churches cannot. Sola scriptura was a 16th century heresy, that cannot be reconciled with any pre-Reformation teaching.
It's not about having the "Bible" in terms of the grouping of books (many of which in the New Testament are letters to various churches penned by the apostle Paul) as a sole rule of faith. It's really about these epistles themselves. Since we don't really know how any of the various early churches were organized... in Phillippi, Corinth, Ephesus, etc... we can only examine these letters that we have to understand what the Christian Faith was really supposed to be about. If you look at these epistles, and take them at face value, reading them brings up many varied questions about the Roman Catholic religion. Outright contradictions, as it were. Look at Romans 3:21-30, for example. It's all about righteousness in Christ by faith. This basically nullifies the whole sacrifice of the Mass and the sacrament of Reconciliation. Does it matter? Even if the church did trace its lineage all of the way to Peter it still has lost its way. The pope is not spiritually infallible... he is noone's Holy Father. The Sacrifice of the Mass is blasphemy, as is the sacrament of Reconciliation. What those two sacraments are saying is that Jesus's finished work on the cross 2000 years ago for the one-time propitiation for ALL SINS! infact wasn't finished, and he must be "unbloodily sacrificed" every Sunday by the priest who somehow has the power to change the unleavened bread (Jewish tradition!) and wine into the body and blood of Christ so that believers may continue to have the forgiveness of sins. Both of these two sacraments and their exact meaning were defined by the magisterium well after the council of Nicea. They are not anything which had existed from Day 1 in the church.
You are mistaken here. Christ promised a church that would never loose its way. That is why when teaching faith and morals the Pope is infallible. Read MT 16: 17-19. The sacrafice of the mass is not a different sacrafice. It is the same sacrafice that happened at Calgary. It happened once and only once. Jesus commanded us to eat his flesh and drink his blood. He himself said it is the only way to be saved. The sacrament of Eucharist is mentioned in the Bible many times. Everytime you see the term breaking of the bread, that is what they are referring to. It is also mentioned in the Didache which is a first century Christian treatisea on morality. There is much mention of the sacraments in the writings of the Church fathers prior to Nicea. Reconciliation is in the Bible. Christ gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins. How could they forgive sins if they were not confessed? The letter of James affirms this.
I've read it many times. Unfortunately Paul's letters to the Christian Church do not mention anything to the early Christians of confessional requirements for salvation. There is much mention of being already justified, righteous, and seated in Heaven along with Jesus by virtue of His finished work... and none of confession to earthly priests. Then why was this dogma not defined until Vatican I? This is untrue. It is an unbloody sacrifice performed every Mass. The Church, unbelievably, exalts itself to be able to crucify Christ again.... the work was finished! It is mentioned, but in the sense of breaking bread and drinking wine in remembrance of Him rather than of renewed crucifixion and transubstantiation. Again, I understand that Jesus's words were difficult... but the dogma of transubstantiation apart from re-crucifixion is the least of my concerns with the Church. I am unaware of this -- but if that is the case it was a situation where Jewish traditions were kept alive through the Church. Only the letter of James. The rest of Paul's epistles contradict this dogma -- how can we be justified by faith if we must confess?
I'm loving this quote from New Advent. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm Basically this says that the doctrine of justification by faith alone historically leads to the decline of public morality and that is why it is wrong. If that followed at all... then the decline of morality, inquisitions, worldly lives of the clergy, and widespread abuses of the Church must mean the Church is invalid as well??? People who teach that don't understand the issues. If Christ lives in you, and you live in Christ, then how could you continue to live wrongly? Bob George puts it well... that wouuld be like a homeless person who is offered to eat at the finest buffet restaurant and turns it down in favor of dumpster diving.
But salvation can be lost. Paul's letters were written to a specific audience for a particular purpose. The need to describe the sacraments may not have been needed. Dogmas are defined when a question is raised on a doctrine. The doctrine can be traced back to the times of the Church Fathers. The definition of a dogma is not the beginning of a belief. Read up here. The sacrafice at Calgary happened once and only once. The sacrafice of the mass is that same sacrafice. We are not crucifying him again. We are ajoining ourselves to the one crucifixition. Look at the context clues in John's gospel. The jews were disgusted by Christ's words and got up and left. It was quite clear he meant to be saved yo had to eat his literal body and blood. Again there is no re-crucifixion. The sacrafice at Calgary happened only once. Reconciliation prior to Nicea "Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]). "You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]). Ignatius of Antioch "For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]). "For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop" (ibid., 8). Irenaeus "[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses" (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]). Tertullian "[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness" (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]). Hippolytus "[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command" (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]). Origen "[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, "To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity"’" (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]). Cyprian of Carthage "The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: ‘ . . . Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him" (The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251]). "Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord" (ibid., 28). "inners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. [But now some] with their time [of penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to Communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]" (Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253]). "And do not think, dearest brother, that either the courage of the brethren will be lessened, or that martyrdoms will fail for this cause, that penance is relaxed to the lapsed, and that the hope of peace [i.e., absolution] is offered to the penitent. . . . For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given" (ibid., 51[55]:20). "But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to think that repentance is not to be granted to the lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied to the penitent, when it is written, ‘Remember whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works’ [Rev. 2:5], which certainly is said to him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of penance], because it is written, ‘Alms deliver from death’ [Tob. 12:9]" (ibid., 51[55]:22). Pre-Nicean Eucharist The Didache "Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]). Pope Clement I "Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release" (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5 [A.D. 80]). Ignatius of Antioch "Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]). Justin Martyr "God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]). Irenaeus "He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand: ‘You do not do my will, says the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is my name among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles" (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]). Cyprian of Carthage "If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is himself the high priest of God the Father; and if he offered himself as a sacrifice to the Father; and if he commanded that this be done in commemoration of himself, then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, truly functions in place of Christ" (Letters 63:14 [A.D. 253]). Ignatius of Antioch "I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]). "Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]). Justin Martyr "We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]). Irenaeus "If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]). "He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2). Clement of Alexandria "’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]). Tertullian "[T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul may be cleansed . . . the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God" (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]). Hippolytus "‘And she [Wisdom] has furnished her table’ [Prov. 9:2] . . . refers to his [Christ’s] honored and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper [i.e., the Last Supper]" (Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs [A.D. 217]). Origen "Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way . . . now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: ‘My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink’ [John 6:55]" (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [A.D. 248]). Cyprian of Carthage "He [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, ‘Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned—[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord" (The Lapsed 15–16 [A.D. 251]). They do not contradict it. The Bible is free from contradiction. Paul's epistles simply do not address it. It takes faith to confess your sins.
