EPA's own research expert 'shut up' on climate change

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by XXL TideFan, Jun 25, 2009.

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  1. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Nope, if you are too lazy to argue your objections, it dies right there. I won't respond if you can't produce an issue.

    Good for you. I don't care.

    Then spell out what it is about the cap and trade proposal that is "bad". Just stating that you disagree will all government endeavors is not an arguement.

    Act like a child and you'll be treated like one.

    Me, too. I'm curious if you actually know one goddamn thing about cap and trade. Why is it so bad?

    Follow your own advice.

    Typical martin sleaziness when he talks himself into a corner and can't get out. Attack the opponent personally. I make my positions known here every day and in detail. No one buys your childish insults.

    Tell me where you stand and why and I'll respond right now. Polls got nothing to do with it--except as a convenient way for you to distract the topic again. You got your ass kicked on Carlins "scientific" objections, so you wet off into "cap and trade". But you fear to debate me on it, so you complain that you can't be bothered and by the way, red has no principles and can't make a decision.

    Here is a direct challenge: Spell out your objections to cap and trade or STFU.
     
    red55, Jun 30, 2009
    #21
  2. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    hey thats great.

    does red55 support or oppose the recent climate bill?

    the issue is the recent bill, it has passed the house already. are you familiar with it?

    does red55 favor or oppose it?

    here i will help:

    choose:

    1. red opposes the bill
    2. red favors the bill
    3. red has no position

    to be clear, i am asking you if you favor this recent bill. i am not asking you to argue with me or disagree with me or defend your position. i am simply asking, do you agree or disagree with the current bill.

    what i think is not the issue i am asking about. i am not asking you to demolish my stupid opinions. i am asking you take a position on something, just once.

    does red55 favor or oppose this recent climate bill? if he were congressman, would he have voted for it?

    this is an example of how one might answer a question: they might say "yes". or perhaps "no". give it a try.

    wonderful. what is your position on the climate bill?
     
    martin, Jun 30, 2009
    #22
  3. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    i am gonna briefly discuss some problems with cap and trade. but red, do me a favor, dont let this distract you. please see if you can take a stand on the current bill and stop being a spineless coward. dont let my opinions here distract you. you concentrate on taking an opinion of some kind on the current bill. like a horse with blinders, keep focused on the current question on your plate.

    of course since i already have a stated position, i can go about discussing it. but you are still at the starting point, having no position or principle of any kind. but together we can work on that. concentrate for noW on the current bill, whether you oppose or favor it. dont lET my discussion of details derail you.


    cap and trade hurts the economy while not accomplishing its goal (which is not even a goal you actually need to accomplish).

    “A carbon tax might not be job-destroying if it were uniform across the globe, but I am skeptical that such uniformity is even remotely feasible...
    "large numbers of companies will experience cost increases that make them less competitive. Jobs will be lost and real incomes of workers constrained.” - alan greenspan

    "it's a huge tax and there's no sense calling it anything else. I mean, it is a tax. And it's a fairly regressive tax" - warren buffet

    now, obama promised to give a tax break to the poor and middle classes. but they spend a far larger percentage of their income on energy, and they will be punished harshly by cap and trade. their jobs will be exported to countries that do not give a damn about carbon emissions. massive amounts of money will be taken from americans and given to foreign countries, and that is normally ok, but it is terrible when it is forced by stupid regulations and not normal market forces.
     
    martin, Jun 30, 2009
    #23
  4. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    ooohh red, big news!

    you almost have an opinion now!

    Opposition to "cap-and-trade" grows in U.S.: poll

    only 52% of american support cap and trade. that must be tough for you when the folks dictating your opinions to you are so evenly split. that explains your reluctance to answer.

    but have faith, grasshopper. the polls might swing a bit and give you a slightly more definitive answer soon!
     
    martin, Jun 30, 2009
    #24
  5. SabanFan

    SabanFan The voice of reason

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    I'm amazed that 52% favor that incredibly horrible piece of crap...err...legislation. There is so much in there that the politicians are not even aware of. The bill is being shoved up our collective asses under the cover of darkness, just like the stimulus bill was. This will cause refineries to shut down, industries to either move away or shut down, increase the cost of energy for everyone of us and enrich no one but a myriad of Government alphabet agencies who will try to administer the damn thing. I am getting real scared of the things that Obama, Pelosi et al are trying to railroad into law like their butts are on fire. Wake up people. Forget this little love affair with the chosen one. We are all getting F'd.
     
    SabanFan, Jun 30, 2009
    #25
  6. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    agreed. the environmental movement is going to harm humanity far more than it will help it. not everyone on earth is a rich first world white liberal that can afford to cripple themselves economically. there are people that this stuff atually hurts. and it hurts worse than a little sea level rise or temp change (which this will not affect anyways). but liberals know what is best for everyone, they know that their fake environmental concerns (borne out of the rich white liberal guilt that has replaced religion for so many) is more important than anything else, so they need to manage everyone.

    right now is the time when we least need this crap, when we least need big taxes. i pray that the republicans will actually do something right for a change and shoot down this crap in the senate.
     
    martin, Jun 30, 2009
    #26
  7. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    DID YOU EVEN READ THE PREVIOUS THREE POSTS?
     
    red55, Jun 30, 2009
    #27
  8. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    yeah, true enough, you said:

    "I don't make declarative statements about something I know nothing about."

    and to be fair, that is true, you know nothing of your own principles. but that is why i posted the poll results so you will know where you stand.

    when you are ready, you can use my framework:

    choose:

    1. red opposes the bill
    2. red favors the bill
    3. red has no position

    haha i am just kidding dude, those choices are all scary and extreme. i will give you a 4th option:

    4. um, what? i uhh, well...i uh, so whats your position, martin? i um, we yunno [shuffles feet], oops um i mean, i am moderate and prudent, and uhh, well you are wrong and i uh, ummm, i cant...well dangit i know some pogo quotes huhuh, yunno grashopper i am moderate, amigo, so i think that clears it up.
     
    martin, Jun 30, 2009
    #28
  9. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Can you just discuss an issue without being a complete azzhole?

    Is your memory impaired in some way? Did you forget that I already answered your question a few weeks ago in another thread, I will copy it here for you, knowing your laziness to ever seek any proof for what you claim.


    Zzzzzzzzz.........

    Get to the point. You were a once a fairly good debater, but you now only seem to want to mock and jeer. Show us you can still muster a logical argument. If you still can.

    How exactly does it do this? You haven't even stated its goal or how that hurts the economy. Nor have you mentioned its virtues to balance against the faults that you haven't listed.

    Well, you haven't established how this would happen. But it's beside the point. The issue was "cap and trade" remember, not Obama's tax promises to the middle class. You are diverting, as usual, into another topic whenever you are questioned on your reasoning.

    Again, how will this happen? Our heavy polluters are power plants. Guess what? Power plants can't be outsourced overseas.

    Since you seem to understand nothing about cap and trade let me explain the process to you. This is how such a plan works,it's not the proposal that you fear, because you still haven't produced that document to be evaluated.

    The government sets a limit or cap on the amount of a pollutant that can be emitted. Companies are issued emission permits and are required to hold an equivalent number of credits which represent the right to emit a specific amount. The total amount of allowances and credits cannot exceed the cap, limiting total emissions to that level. Companies that need to increase their emission allowance can buy credits from those who pollute less. In effect, the buyer is paying a charge for polluting, while the seller is being rewarded for having reduced emissions by more than was needed. Thus those who can easily reduce emissions most cheaply will do so, achieving the pollution reduction at the lowest possible cost to society.

    The overall goal of a cap and trade plan is to reduce emissions. The cap is usually lowered over time - aiming towards a national emissions reduction target. This plan has already been conducted for sulphur emissions for years in the United States to reduce acid rain and it has worked splendidly. I presume the cap and trade plan you fear is regarding carbon emissions.

    Because emissions trading uses markets to determine how to deal with the problem of pollution, it is often touted as an example of effective free market environmentalism. While the cap is usually set by a political process, individual companies are free to choose how or if they will reduce their emissions. Firms will choose the least-costly way to comply with the pollution regulation, creating incentives that reduce the cost of achieving a pollution reduction goal.

    Now, for the last time. I like cap and trade in general, it has worked for us before and it is a free market solution using incentives, not dictums. But politicians can screw things up. If credit "banks" and third-party credit brokers are involved it opens up the possibility of profiteering, which I could not support. It all depends on how the actual proposal turns out.

    Now, what poll did I consult to conclude this?
     
    red55, Jun 30, 2009
    #29
  10. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    fabulous! dont care. i didnt ask "in general". what about this particular bill? favor? oppose? you cant play the vague card anymore when an actual real bill exists.

    so your answer is yes? i mean no? you oppavor it? favoppose? good but maybe not if politicians screw it up? bad maybe good? great possibly miserable? wonderful yet awful?

    "well, if...then it all depends....i might support...hey whats that over there...i hey well um i know and i think well yunno nothing...hey i hear the good eats forum looks busy"

    the poll i posted that said americans were pretty evenly divided. it left you unable to take a side. you will have to wait for the polls to pull your little puppet strings more definitively.
     
    martin, Jun 30, 2009
    #30
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