Discussion: Is the Holy Roman Catholic Church the only true Christian church?

actually I don't need something to believe in as far as the afterlife since i need something to cope. Or fear the wrath of God. Maybe I should.

I was raised catholic and believe in the presence and power of God from my personal experiences.

To assume that's many people's reasoning behind it I feel is wrong. Not to mention it helps me live right when troubled with life's tough decisions. It helps to have a reason to do right as opposed to the goodness of my heart which often doesn't exist.

 

supa , your web site is a catholic website for the last time tainted.

Also on your note of Inqusitors present in the Old testament. Here is another flaw in the Catholic doctrine, trying to live by the Old Testament. Definately a part of the bible and all of it's teachings pertinant to Christianity are repeated in the new Testament. Sacrificing doves, bulls and goats not being one of them. We as Christians are not required to follow the Mosaic law, given to the Jews by Moses. When Christ died and rose the Promise of the Old testament was fullfilled. If you practice appointment of Inquistors, I take it you also sacrifice bulls blood on an alter somewhere? Point made.

I am going to state the point one LAST time.

Early church, apostlic, ordained, followed teachings of Christ as he taught them , with correction where necessary from elders ie leader, ie Paul of Tarsus, Peter, etc...


The Council of Nicea- circa 384
While they were Christians, they introduced major changes in orginazation of the church, set up officials, not biblical, a clear break from new testament teachings. Clearly different from the first century churchs, some may argue a natural progression, others can clearly see a break from traditional teachings of the new testament. While I do belive they are Christian, I do not know if they are saved or not, that is between them and their maker. I do know they perverted the New testament and inserted man's idea of worship. Not exactly what god would approve of..probably.

Donatists and Catholics, emerged in the 4th century and further distanced themselves from the new testament teachings. While the Holy scriptures were canonized, they were also added to and man expanded his jurisdiction over other Christians, this is not authorized in the early church. MY opinion. This is not copied and pasted. I am not alone in believing this way. While Catholics may indeed be heaven bound, I do not believe God winks at perversion of his inspired word. His inspired word is all that is needed to set up the Church organization, not the political trappings of man.

By the late 4th Century ( NOT BEFORE ) ( that's 400 years ) ( for reference the USA hasn't been a country that long )
we see the formal organization of a "victor in Christ" on earth by the Catholic church. NOT the only Christian Church at this time BTW. This is CLEARLY a perversion of the early church's method of worship. No one disputes this in History, indeed Catholics are the only one's that rush to justify this by a feeble attempt to "tie" themselves and Peter to the papacy. Peter was not a Pope he was an Apostle.


I have nothing agaisnt the Catholic Faith. I only point out that many of their teachings are in error. And not only that, to claim to be the "only" true church, well that is just going too far. You can conjure up writings of Catholics from now untill the next five Popes and it doesnt make it so.

Early Catholic leaders were more concerned with Political status than the teachings of Christ. This is well documented in secular Roman history. Indeed the church did not encourage the common man ( peasants ) to read the scripture. yet it was within their power to make it widespread. The policitical power of the Pope became so large in early european history that Leo the great, a Pope, tried to negotiate his rule of the Western Roman Empire with the Hun's should Rome fall.
Probably a good political move, but not exactly in keeping with the teachings of the Bible.
So what's all this fuss about teachings of the bible?
1. The original new testament contains all the organizational tools needed to form a Christian Church.
2. Can you safely ADD your doctrine and be sure God winks and approves of it?
3. Just because a groupd appoints a leader and claims he is God's champion on earth does not make it so. Unless God picks him. the Cardnals don't get divine inspiration.that hasn't happened since....the first century.

4. If the Pope is divinely inspired, when did he get that way? if the Cardnals are all divinly inspired when they elect him, then why do they need to elect him? They should just know. Constant Prayer does not make one inspired.
Re-read the Gospels to find out WHO was inspired. there is no mention of Pope.

the position " bishop of Rome" was a man made term, bishop appears in the bible, titles over an area do not. To exalt one's self to a lofty position in the church is to do so for political means. No other reason can be given since the bible does not mention it as beneficial. Leaders of the early church were congregational, not city wide, not state wide, not nation wide and certainly not world wide. The papacy is a slap in the face of the savoir, an exalted position that mocks Christ's as head of the church. My opinion.

No malice intended, my words & writings may be accusational, if the shoe fits wear it, again I cannot change this, and you know I am not the only one who believes this way.
I do believe if you have any reasoning at all and REALLY READ the bible as Martin Luther did, you would do as he did and tack 95 points of concern to your Church's door. And then just as Martin Luther was you'd be excommunicated.

Care to go into that? How does man excommunicate someone? Wouldn't that be between him/her and God?

I have a question for you, one last question, please don't come back with an untruth. Remember I came out of Catholicism. How many bible's appear in the pew in front of you at your place of worship? Do you bring one with you? I know the Preist has one on the alter, but how many WHOLE bibles, no I don't mean the mistlette, I mean an actual whole bible, even the Catholic one.
for those of you who don't know a Mistlelette is a guide to the ceremony of the mass. It contains exerpts from the Catholic bible. Exerpts" SP? you know what i mean.

The original question was: Is the Holy Roman Catholic Church the only TRUE Christian Church. No it is not. It is/was one of many churches to evolve into a Christian church, NOT THE Christian Church. It was obviously different from the 1st century Christians. maybe this has no consequence. I don't know. Let us hope not.

My father and sister are Catholic and for the record I believe there will be MANY Catholics in heaven. But it's not in me to be silent on the truth, when man attempts to change scripture. Are we any less ignorant than martin Luther was? I can read, therefore I simply attempt to point out the error of something that should matter to you. Your faith and soul.

bonne chance and
have a great day.

 

Actually my spelling may suck BTW I did spell nfl correctly it's not capitalized. I see your knowledge is less than mine since you obviously can't add anything to this. I wonder how one who knows nothing on a subject can judge the knowledge of another? were you inspired? Oh it's just obvious I see. Gee, here's a fellow that claims I look uninformed yet he couldn't tell the difference between the mother mary and a buddist doll.
Tirk, do YOURSELF a favor and stay clear of inserting your opinion where you don't know jack. I've probably forgotten more on catholicism than you'll ever know, and you're probaably going to be catholic all your life.

WHY? Well probably because your Mom and Dad were. While I don't agree with martin on all things spiritual I will agree with him on one thing, most people are like sheep they never justify their faith through study, they just follow blindly. You are one of these. At least I have the wherewithall to study further what base my faith in for something as important as one's soul. Whether I am roght or wrong, at least I checked it out. what do you do? pee in the holy water? Just think how much more ignorant you appear than I. What can you say? Your synopsis is basically:
JS: knows nothing and was a Catholic
Tirk: knows less and is still Catholic.
Really bodes well for your soul doesn't it? OH let not I judge you, you convict yourself in your own conviction of me, which has no basis in the bible. yes of great teacher of faith, thine foot is in thine mouth.

Tirk: I am catholic and no nothing, but I KNOW you know zilch. yeah right. :dis:
I think it's pretty clear by my posts I know tons more than you will ever know. And probably half the Catholics here. debatable no doubt.....
That doesn't save MY soul though. I am merely trying to point out some things to supa.

BTW: I cannot afford the luxury of being "jaded" towards Catholics, I have family that are Catholic and I love them. Jaded is your term, I don't deny I doubt the true origins of Catholicism, but I do not doubt their sincerity.
Golly did I spell all that right? I give them fits too, I feel it is my duty to point this out, as I would hope they would to me.

Being sincere in one's faith may or may not get you into heaven. it's not for me to judge. The bible does not "seem" to give man lots of room for deviation.
fortunately, that's what Christ died for, to cover us when we err. I hope it covers all Catholics. I will continue to point out the falicy of the Roman Catholic church however, in it's broadcast that it is the "only" true church. This simply isn't so.


BTW:
anyone could have picked the first five, with reasonable accurcay.
Maybe if you study your faith as hard as you do draft picks, you might actually gain more than a good seat at the next NFL game. GEE who'd of thunk it? If you consider those draft picks as important as your soul, you might as well get on Martin's band wagon.

Have a good day.

 

the NFL comment was simply tongue in cheek from the beginning. you know, to something irrelevant like your continuous spewing of idiocy in this post.

you can type all you wish but I've shown more sense by not chiming in than you by showing complete ignorance of the subject. while you are passionate about such things because of your personal experiences or whatever, you still come across totally ignorant.

I didn't read but possibly half your reply. I have no attention span for someone's attempt at validity. you really should learn when to stop.

 

You should read it, it has less to do with validity than with your soul.

good day.

 

i was speaking to some specific comments from gman about what 157 calls "pascal's wager", which i have heard many times from believers, but makes no sense. i had a girlfriend once who thought that way, but when i was done with her she realized that was nuts.

i understand that not everyone is christian because they fear the consequences of atheism, but some are. i know it doesnt really please me that it appears that my life is utterly meaningless, but there isnt much i can do about it except enjoy it while it lasts.

thats as good as a reason as anything. but it is a large leap from that to buying into all the dogma of the religions. like i have said before, maybe there is a god, no problem, but all the trappings of belief that usually go along with it, the procedures and whole system of nonsense that is obviously made up, thats the crazy part.

 

which is what led to me give up religion in the first place. when i was 13 i realized a guy i knew was jewish and what that meant. it meant that all of what i have been told, the key to salvation all the important stuff, john 3:16, all that, it wasnt really facts. i didnt realize that until then. i thought there was some authority that knew what was right and we were all christian for a reason. but it turned out that my friend was born into a jewish family and therefore didnt buy any of my methodist crap. that was huge in my mind. and i couldnt believe how crazy that was. and i knew he saw methodism to be as wrong as his judaism was according to my methodism. so i recognized that the whole system was a result of nothing more than where and and to whom i was born, not anything else.

and especially because i was in baton rouge, i really didnt know that everyone wasnt christian. i was no expert, i just went with what obviously must have been right because every adult i knew was saying it. then i realized they didnt know any better than i did if there was a god.

i realized that nobody actually had answers, just whole belief systems masquerading as answers, because non-answers were unacceptable.

you are right, i think this thread is telling. one guy says "this specifically is right and i base my life on it", but the other guy is just as positive that god wants it the other way, and that he thinks is the real info, the real path to salvation. they talk as if they know the specifics of god's will, but somehow they cant agree on what that is. it makes you wonder if either of them really know the story, or if they tell themselves they do, like they have been told to by all the chrisians around all their lives. tell people something when they are young enough, and they are gonna believe it for a long time.

 

Martin, in all seriousness what would it take to make you believe in God? I know you are a staunch atheist and I admire the fact that you are able to make up your own mind about what you believe and not let others "force feed" you beliefs. I am geniuinely curious as to what would make you believe in God.

On the reason that you don't believe I can totally understand that, who is to say that Christianity is more correct than Judaism or Hinduism or any other religion. I'll admit the reason I am a Christian probably has a lot to do with my upbringing but as I became older I started to study the Bible and saw all of the prophecies that had been fulfilled which only strengthened my belief.

Jewish dispersion (Deuteronomy 28:49-52, and 65-67, Deuteronomy 4:25-27 and 30,Hosea 9:17)
Jewish Persecution (Deuteronomy 31:16-17, Zechariah 8:13)
Israel becoming a nation again (Isaiah 43:5-6, Deuteronomy 30:3-5, Ezekiel 36:8-10, Ezekiel 37:10-14)
Babylon would rule Judah (southern kingdom) for 70 years (Jeremiah 25:11-12)
Four Great Kingdoms of the World (Daniel 2:32-33)
Babylon would never again be a nation(Isaiah 13:19)
Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (Daniel 9:26,Matthew 24:1-2, Luke 21:24)

There are many many more but I need to get some sleep.

 

Or, more likely, it's impossible to argue with hard and clear FACTS.

No one's arguing that Law and Hughes did what they did in Boston.

The only "question" was "DID PJPII & THE VATICAN KNOW?"

ANd, NO ONE can argue that Hughes got a F*(&KING PROMOTION after he did what he did.

Which leads to the FINAL question -- CAN YOU ADD?