Digging up Jesus

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by USMTiger, Feb 27, 2007.

  1. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Jeshua is a Hebrew name, but Aramaic is a Hebrew dialect and did not really change Hebrew names.

    They were first written in Greek. The gospels were not actually written by the apostles whose names are attributed to them. They were written over a hundred years later by Christian disciples in Greek, which was the principal language of Antioch and the other eastern Mediterranean Christian centers where Peter and Paul preached and was easliy understood around the Roman Empire. Aramaic was only spoken in Palestine and was not widely known.
     
  2. LSUsupaFan

    LSUsupaFan Founding Member

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    This is debatable. Many scholars, both within the Church and secular hold that the gospels were in fact written by the Apostles they are attributed to. If not the books were written by apostolic disciples in the middle to late first century.

    This isn't quite accurate. The Gospels may have been written as late as 100 AD, but not 100 years after the resurrection. Most scholars believe the author of Luke was also the author of Acts, and since Acts does not mention the martyrdom of Peter and Paul that it must have preceded their deaths. This would place its date of origin at around 62-67 AD. Luke is also considered to be the third of the Synoptic Gospels. So if it were written before 67 AD, then Matthew and Mark were even older. We know the books were written no later than 120 AD because their names start to appear in pastoral letters written by the early Church fathers about this time. So even at the latest date these gospels were written no longer than 70 years after the crucifixion.
     
  3. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    What is important to understand, in my opinion, is that early Christian texts were written over a century after Jesus' time. Around 300 years or so AD, many of these documents were combined into the Gospels. Biblical scholars generally agree that the gospels were not actually written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, but that these venerated names were used to identify the new holy books, just as names of Jewish prophets and Kings were used to identify the books of the old testament.

    In the first and second century, writers were used to putting their spiritual master's name as being the author of what they wrote. In any case it is unlikely that any of the apostles, being mainly Jewish fishermen, knew how to write in Greek. And Greek appears to be the source language for the Gospel texts. The very numerous gospels, acts and probably epistles too were very likely composed by the communities founded by the claimed authors of the text, rather by these people themselves.

    We don't know who wrote any of the Gospels. We have traditions, but traditions are not facts; and there is no evidence that the names attached to the Gospels are those of the people who wrote them. One can't discount traditions; they often contain the germ of a fact, but they may also simply be parables that circulated among the churches long after they were written. There is just no external evidence from the time they were written of who wrote any of the Gospels.

    The question is, does it matter? Does it make them somehow inauthentic? I don't believe it does. The message of the Gospel is still there.

    More like 90 years later. But there are just no examples of authentic gospel texts this early to settle the argument. References to Mark, Mattthew, Luke, or John in ancient letters could refer to anything.
     
  4. LSUsupaFan

    LSUsupaFan Founding Member

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    This is slightly inaccurate. While the cannon was not formally defined until the 4th century, the books that make it up had existed for hundreds of years. The Gospels may well be based on some source documents. Matthew, Mark, and Luke sure do look alot alike. There is alot of room for discussion of the authorship of the Gospels. They may have been written by the Apostles themselves, or first generation disciples of the Apostles. We start seeing the books being quoted and reference in the early second century. Most historians place the synoptic at being written no later than 90 AD which is about 55 yeas after the crucifixion. The Gospel of John could have been written as late as 120 AD or as early as 90. As far as the epistles we can most certainly say when they were written.

    I understand that the Apostles' disciples may have received the Gospel orally, and written it later, but do not discount the traditional author's ability to write. Luke, for example, was not an apostle. He wasn't a Jew. He was a Greek doctor. Matthew was a Tax collector, so he surely would have known how to write.


    There is a lot of external evidence that points to authorship during the lifetime of the Apostles. Polycarp, Ireaneus, and many other Church fathers of the late 1st and throughout the 2nd century believed in authorship by the attributed authors. That is a big reason why these gospels became cannon, and others like the Gospel of Thomas disappeared from common knowledge.

    It does not matter at all. I just wanted to point out that is evidence to support the authorship of the gospels. While some scholars take your view it is not a concensus.

    The Church fathers knew the gospels by the end of the 2nd century, and quoted the 4 canonical gospels greatly. It can be said with certainty that these books were held in a higher regard than the gospels which came to be known as apocryphal even as early as the second century
     
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  5. Bengal Buddy

    Bengal Buddy Founding Member

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    It is a written language. I never said the men who wrote the gospels were not educated. I simply said Aramaic was a common form of Hebrew. I think most Jews received some education. They had to if they were to be able to read scripture well enough to receive their Bar Mitzpha.
     
  6. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    But we cannot know how closely they resemble the retranslated, many times recopied, and edited texts of the 4th century. No originals exist from the time you attribute them and much oral tradition may have been added.

    There is a lot of assertation by faithful devotees, but scarce actual evidence, I would say.

    What authentic 2nd century documents actually quote recognizable gospel texts?
     
  7. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Aramaic can be written, but it was not known outside of Palestine. Aramaic texts did not travel far. Education as we know it did not exist in this time. There were few literate people in Palestine, and most of them were literate in Greek or Roman, rather than Hebrew or Aramaic.

    Carpenters, shepards, and fishermen were generally illiterate. If any of them told their tales to scribes, they were likely written down in Greek, which could be read throughout the Roman Empire.
     
  8. LSUsupaFan

    LSUsupaFan Founding Member

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    Barnabas quotes the hell out of scripture.
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0124.htm

    Here's Clement of Alexandria writing late 2nd Century.
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0207.htm
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02091.htm

    Here's Pope St. Clement of Rome writing in the 2nd century
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

    Here is a work called the Shepard.
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0201.htm

    Hippolytus:
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050108.htm

    Ignatius of Antioch
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0104.htm
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0108.htm
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0114.htm

    Irenaeus of Lyons, a good buddy of Ignatius
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0134.htm

    Justin Martyr
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0128.htm
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0131.htm

    Origen (early third century)
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101501.htm
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101610.htm

    Papias actually heard St. John preach
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0125.htm
    Polycarp, a deciple of John the beloved Apostle and a teacher of St. Ireaneus:
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0136.htm

    Tatian
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0202.htm
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1002.htm

    Tertullian
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0302.htm
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0303.htm
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0304.htm

    The Didache written as early as 60 and no later than 120.
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm
     
  9. Bengal Buddy

    Bengal Buddy Founding Member

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    The Gospel of Mark was the first one written and was probably written sometime after the death of Peter but before 70 A.D. The Gospel was probably written by a member of the second-generation Church, perhaps a disciple of Mark but that is uncertain. The Gospel of Luke was probably written sometime after 70 A.D. Authorship is inconclusive. The Gospel of Matthew was almost certainly not written by the disciple Matthew, and like Luke, was probably written sometime after 70 A.D. The original gospel of John was probably first written in Aramaic by John himself who was also very likely the first editor of his gospel. Then, it was translated into Greek and edited again by a disciple of John. Following John's death, work on the Greek version continued until completed. Since John died around 100 A.D., it is fair to assume that the canonical Gospel was completed around that time. So the Gospels were not written 100 years after Christ, but between 30 - 75 years after the crucifixion.
     
  10. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    last year some scientists uneartherthed the actual tomb of the flying spaghetti monster, and found evidence that he is technically vermicelli. i dont believe it for a minute!
     

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