if somebody said it out loud it is true. particularly if one of the guys who said it was a saint. still not sure what this is based on, although i suspect it is based on a mentality like the one cparso admits to having, that if something exists, then it would seem like something created it. which of course leads to the endless cycle of wondering what created the creator. but the "A exists, so some sort of god made it" is an argument based on nothing more than that how annoyed we are with the lack of answer for where everything came from. the "unmoved mover" is what people sometimes reference when they have the guts to admit that the attentive, good-guy god who needs to be worshipped is fiction, but they arent yet ready to accept the lack of an explanation for existence. people cant stand to not know something they want to know. for example when nobody knew what saban would do. any answers, even made up ones, were happily accepted. the lack of information on topics we want answers to is unbearable to some people.
'We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.' - r. dawkins
This post is not a direct answer to the previous posts, just an observation about some of the general themes being discussed: 1) It's impossible to have a universe based soley on "dependent beings". There has to be a independent being to start with. To say it another way, anything that has a beginning has to be created by something before it. God doesn't have a beginning, that's why he has always existed, meaning He is the independent being.... 2) The universe and life in it is cleary the work of a intelligent designer. This is becoming increasingly clear through science, etc. Evolution is another theory that will be discarded to join the rest of discredited theories.....my personal favorite was the medical one where they put leeches on the patients to suck out the bad blood......in any case, evolution is on the way out, there are some excellent books in regard to this subject if you take the time to research it. just a few observations.....
yes, scientists have demonstrated in the laboratory tht god has no beginning. they worked long and hard trying to find his beginning, but after hours and hours of work with bunsen burners and beakers and oscilloscopes, they gave up. god has no beginning.
String theory has rung a lot of bells. Possibly 9 to 21 dimensions, where therein lies the unifield field theory, it seems. Incomprehensible now, but maybe one day it will allow us to know we're touching the face of god, when we hold out our hand.
Martin, I picked up on the sarcasm but I'm not exactly sure what you were referring to so I'll try it again: Question #1) No scientist would claim to be able to test anything outside the physical universe.....since God wouldn't fall under that realm what's the point of your last statement? And as far as the comment about the beginning and God, etc......you would have to agree with the idea of God (the Supreme Being and all that sort of thing) existing outside of time...if, hypothetically, you agreed for a moment that there was one. Wouldn't you....? It would be pretty silly to have a concept of an all-powerful Creator of the Universe and shackle him with qualities like existing only within the same dimensions that we operate under. You might as well believe he is located at some specific spot....like on Mt. Olympus, for example. Question #2) My point about science being able to show that life and its complexity reflects intelligent design is perfectly valid. Go read up on it, the arguments in favor of intelligent design are getting more and more air-tight. The chances of the universe randomly producing the universe as we know are really nil......
Don't they still use this technique in some circumstances? What do you mean? The historical evidence showing the evolution of species is going somewhere?
actually there's a shift back to a lot of the old medical methods such as leeches. they started using maggots on diabetics who were close to needing amputations. The surgeries are overly expensive to try and remove infection plus they have a very high failure rate resulting in amputations anyhow. So, they put maggots in as a last resort and let them eat the infection out. once they get full after a couple of days they replace them. they discovered the maggots actually produce a bacteria killing enzyme which aids the process. In a lot of cases 90+% of the infection is removed as opposed to less than 50 from expensive and painful surgeries. Also, leeches were recently approved by the FDA since leeches promote healthy bloodflow and end stagnation. They also work as microscopic sutures that are too smallfor surgeons to handle.
i dont see why i would believe that any more than any other random fact of indeterminate truth value. you can say there is a god all day long, but i dunno where you found that out or where it is demonstrated. you believe based on faith, which is fine, but i do not, and it surely has nothing to do with science. yeah fine, so what. i dont give or take any qualities from god, i have no knowledge of who or where or what or if he even exists. i have nothing to define him by. for the zillionth time, the mere existence of a universe is not sufficient evidence for god. the existence of the universe proves that the universe exists, that is all. i have read up on it. intelligent design vs evolution is a personal hobby of mine, and has been for years. i have read more about it than pretty much anyone who isnt employed in the field. your views on intelligent design are not a result of science, but rather your personal faith in religion.
Martin, a couple of questions: -how can the fact that they have never found any transisitional fossils not bother you? -do you think the idea of punctuated equilibrium sounds in the least bit reasonable? -How about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, doesn't that make you think evolution is "going against the grain" of everything we see around us? -Doesn't is seem suspicious that the Universe seems "fine-tuned" to allow life to exist....from sub-atomic forces to cellular structure to the location of the planet.....it all seems to be a pretty big coincidence, doesn't it? -This is off the topic but how about history itself.....doesn't it make any impact on you that so much of what was written in the Bible as prophecy has come true? Just read some things concerning Israel and the Jews being scattered and then coming back together.....just that in itself should make some impact on you at some level.....I mean what group of people that existed 3000 years ago has come back to claim their homeland? None of them....hell none of those people exist anymore....there aren't any Phoenicians, or Assyrians or Persians running around anymore. All those groups and tribes have either been assimilated or wiped out. Not the Jews though, they survived their homeland getting wiped out and being persecuted practically endlessly and yet they are still here. Does that not strike you as somewhat odd? -The last point here is that the people who want to be able to deny the existence of God are totally committed to the theory of evolution. If evolution was disproved then "they" would have to admit the existence of a Supreme Being. These are people who will come up with any theory to deny the existence of God; the Steady-State theory was a beauty, too....make sure you read up on that one.....how can you not see that the minds behind this type of b.s. have an agenda? They will come up with the most twisted theory possible if necessary.....the truth is really not what they are after.....they want something to hang their hat on so they can deny God. p.s.-the fact that the universe exists does prove that there has to be a Creator. Just like the fact that you exists proves you have parents....it's really not that complex....
