That's hitting around the point I was making—too much to use one to define success as another.

@red55

A few things I think we'll just disagree on, one I have no problem with saying you're right, and some where I think we're both right.

You're dismissing JUCO experience, his skill level coming out, when it comes to how he did in 2013. You credit it being all Cameron, all the while dismissing his (Mett's) past experience, and I can't help but say, "wait!" To use an old cliche, he (Cam) wasn't making "chicken salad out of chicken shit."

Now, I had it in my mind that Cameron came in for 2012. I'm not sure what led me there, but it was wrong.

Combining both thoughts, how likely is it that his JUCO coach put him in position to make the correct decisions much like Cameron put him in a better position in 2013? I'm not saying Cam didn't have a role or didn't elevate his game. I am saying there are other factors that have to be included in the increased production.

As example, mentioning the same offensive line and wide receiver corps being in place in 2012 as 2013 should include the fact a year under the experience belt of both corps should lead to increased production.

The stats tell a better story for 2013. Yet, after some founds are found bragging about schedule in other threads, it's got to be a point taken into consideration that LSU played better teams in 2012 than 2013. Average yards per game are boosted—look at the @300 yard difference in the game against the FCS teams in both years.

These things don't add up to one sum—Cam being the final and only difference.

You're right, I can be obstinate. You're wrong, I can make and admit to an error.

I do look at this discussion and see a lot of pieces—the majority seemingly ignored to make it all about Cam. That, I believe, is a disservice to Mettenberger.

You're correct about his 1 year at Tennessee. When I was looking back at his career, something led me to believe he was there in 2008 too, but I was wrong about that. Nonetheless, your 3 Tennessee stats are easily dealt with.

1) They were 6th in the conference in 2009. They were 52nd nationally. The article mentions them as the 2nd best coordinator duo nationally.

2) Points per game, though helpful, is absolute. We need relative statistics to compare them to the rest of the country. They were 43rd in the country in 2009, which goes slightly against the grain of my argument.

3) Passing offense is against mentioned in terms of the SEC rather than the nation. They were 46th in the nation and 53rd in the nation in rushing yards per game.

I know that improvement from one year to the next is indicative of success, but UT was not lacking in talent when he coached there, so he had the tools to be better. Look at Malzahn's body of work. Now there's a top OC.

With respect to USC, I left out 2011 because I just looked to his two most recent seasons at USC. They were 16th in the nation in points per game that year. By the time Barkley left, they finished 61st, although obviously a lot of those games were played without Kiffin. The year in between and Barkley's senior season(2012), they were 40th in ppg. Yes, Stanford had a good D, but Kiffin didn't coach USC against Stanford in 2013 nor Oregon. You're talking about 2012. And though he lost by 7 against Stanford, he put up 14 points; remember, only offense is of concern here. He also put up a whopping 7 against ACC powerhouse Georgia Tech that year if we want to consider individual games. Oregon is also good, but has had poor defenses in general the past few years.

As for the 2+2 analogy, I suppose we just disagree on how painfully obvious it is that Lane Kiffin is undeserved of a ranking of #2 in coordinator pairs in the country. The guy hasn't earned any job he's been at.

The new question you've posed is much, much more reasonable. If I'm not mistaken, you're an Alabama fan(I'm not a very frequent user of these boards, though I try to stay in touch). My understanding was that Saban has a stranglehold on all meaningful discretion, so I wouldn't put much of Alabama's offensive success on the shoulders of Kiffin as opposed to Saban, but you would probably know better than I.

"Cameron changed everything with Mettenberger"

Am I parsing words to literally? Perhaps. It may have not been your intent, but it was my interpretation.

We are looping others comments into our discussion. One of the things I pointed to earlier was the suggestion Mett didn't beat out other quarterbacks but that flies in the face of these two coaches not utilizing what they had on hand, right?

A bit of a sidetrack, but something to consider. Al Borges made a huge difference in how Jason Campbell performed with Auburn. Yet, he's not repeated the same with any quarterback that I can recall. Was that because of who he had on hand, or his ability?

I've credited Cam for Mett's performance in this very thread, red. Everything you're saying here is correct; clicker to clickee. (does Scrabble recognize "clickee?")

Duplication with more than one is the question at hand as I see this. Anthony Jennings, with approximately the same time as Mett under Cam, could be an answer, right?[/quote][/QUOTE]

I would give Doug Nussmeier and Smart a higher rating than Kittens and Smart, but that's just me.

You and every other human that doesn't have little nicky's nut prints on their chin.

TT, didn't want to go there.

McElwain.