this is wht i say to women when we argue about equal pay for equal work. why do women keep accepting poor wages, cant they negotiate (obviously they cant). and why would an intelligent capitalist ever hire a man if he can get equal work for a woman for less money?
You elected them. AND THEY DO. We The People have elected the representatives that made this law. Tthe law is there for a reason. You just don't get it and that's OK, but it ain't my problem. I've explained why it is there several times. Sure it does. There are different opinions on most issues and in a democracy we arrive at a workable compromise. Live with it. WE THE PEOPLE are the government. Can you not understand that? Just because you are anti-goverment doesn't mean that government is evil and repressive. Change it if you don't like it. Good luck getting that majority. Did you even read my post? Entry-level, non-skilled labor have NOTHING TO NEGOTIATE WITH. No experience, no talent. It's NOT a free negotiation. You're offered a wage, period. Prove it. How many people are lining up to work for less than minimum wage? They aren't. Teen unemployment? Is that what your argument is all about. I'm talking about people working full time jobs and trying to support a family, perhaps. You know, the 2% of the population that you think is bankrupting the country? Working below the poverty level at minimum wage. You begrudge them that and want to offer them less. How much less? How about 50 cents an hour, take it or leave it? You started out advocating the equilibrium wage, but when I pointed out that this would allow the minimum wage to rise as well as fall, you changed the subject. I pointed out that the full-time workers making minimum wage is only two percent of the workforce and you ignore this. I point out that the wages have gone up across the board as time progresses and it only makes sense that the minimum wage go up as well and you change the subject. It comes down to you thinking that teenagers get paid too much. Amazing. You have not given any evidence to support this. The unemployment crisis was created by the 2009 recession taking money out of the market, NOT the fact that we have a minim wage. We have had a minimum wage for 80 years through boom and bust. Let a teenager go against Exxon. Sure, pal. Good luck trying to get minimum wage overturned. Not even the Republicans are trying to do that. Not even the Tea Party. Even Nazi Germany has a minimum wage, talk about far right. Wrong it protects them from self-serving decisions made by others. Paranoia runs deep . . .
reds argument often boils down to this: "i vote for stupid things. they are stupid but fuck you, it called a democracy, so i get to vote". seems like we are already aware of that, we are trying to tell you not to favor stupid things. so who the law protecting again? why would a law be necessary if the market already works such that people selling labor are already getting more? you just figure any law that controls people making deals between themselves is good, even if counterproductive according to me, and pointless according to you? are you really worried about protecting these people you just said are not lining up to do the thing you want to protect them from lining up to do?
What a trite was to lose an argument. Trying to make it about me instead of the issue. We are not fooled.
No I didn't. You've explained why you think the law is good. I've explained why I think the law is bad. Your rebuttal is that the law is good because it was democratically adopted. That is silliness. Does it follow that a democracy can make no wrong-headed laws? Should Plessy v. Furguson still be around on the basis that it was crafted by men appointed by democratically elected representatives? And you're wrong. I was entry-level and non-skilled when I got my first job. I had a talent for fixing things. From birth. That's something I brought to the table. If you can't negotiate, then you won't find a job, because getting a job means you have something to offer. Right. Because it's illegal. Better they stay unemployed than work for a wage you or the government consider exploitive. 2% that I think is bankrupting the country? I never said anything like that. What are you talking about? I don't begrudge them anything. I want them to be free to negotiate whatever price they wish and let market mechanisms work, rather than impose an arbitrary price for labor that a third-party considers fair. What I pointed out: First, if equilibrium wage goes up, there's no need for minimum wage. The market mechanism works efficiently enough by itself to set appropriate prices. Second, if equilibrium wage goes down, there's no need for minimum wage. The market mechanism works efficiently enough by itself to set appropriate prices. Third, that the government has no business setting price controls. Ultimately your response to that is that only the government can save the helpless employees from the monstrous corporations. For the second time, I didn't ascribe the problem with unemployment as fundamentally caused by minimum wage. I said that minimum wage, like any price floor, causes shortages. That means unemployment. You can either agree with every economics textbook definition of a price floor, or not. What is a leftist to do without using extreme fringe examples and emotional appeals to govern the general rule? How?
I wasn't making it about you I was making it about your argument, which boiled down to the fact that it is a democracy and we vote for leaders who do stupid thing. We are trying to explain why these decisions are bad. You are reminding us that we are a democracy, we knew that already.
Exactly my point. Laws reflect the democracy and change from time to time. The government is not THEM it is US. Sure a democracy can make a bad law, but it is self correcting and can be changed if the majority agrees or the Constitution demands it. Minimum wage was established by US for a reason and has never been found to be unconstitutional. You are entitled to lobby for change, but your chances of success are slim. You had a skill and could negotiate a job. Unskilled labor cannot do this. They are offered a wage and can take it or leave it. The best interests of the nation are that the lowest starting wage does not produce full-time workers in poverty. I repeat. Minimum wage is not the reason that unemployment is high. I cited a famous study which found that there is no evidence that minimum wage cause unemployment. No, you are lobbying for LOWER wages than minimum, period. "Some third party" happens to be the best interests of the nation and the wished of the elected representatives of ourselves. The country comes first. I have demonstrated at length the reasons why there is no fair "negotiation" for entry-level jobs between unskilled individuals and giant corporations. Only if there was a law requiring businesses to respect and use an equilibrium wage rather than a wage that profits only business. Minimum wage does this. It is absolutely legal and they have made it their business for a very good reason . . . business has proven to be exploitative if left to their own devices. Even child labor had to be regulated out of existence. It was always fine with the robber barons. Minimum wage employment is not like selling products. For the third time, studies have simply not found a correlation with minimum wage an unemployment. Beats me, I'm telling you what a centrist would do. Minimum wage does not protect workers from their own decisions, it protects them from the self-serving decisions of businesses.
What you are doing is the same as saying I Am a rapist because will allow women to bang me if they want. These decisions require two people, nether of whom need you to protect them. Employers are not enslaving, they are offering jobs they are not required to offer, and the worker is not required to take. The left wing lie is condescending and controlling and wants make all decisions.
