So then you agree with Supa that parts of the bible are just allegory, and not to be taken literally? That's a big step for you. Good for you.
By the way, Salty and Supa, neither of you has shown anything that refutes my characterization of god in the Old Testament as a genocidal, hateful being, even though the bible backs what I am arguing. Instead of outright dismissing it, could one of you at least try to refute my argument?
id argue the OT god is just instead of hateful. many of the acts in OT arent nice but that doesnt mean they are out of hate.
How is it just to condemn all of mankind for one man and woman eating a fruit? How was it just to send a flood to kill every man, woman, and child, save for one family? How was it just to command the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child of the tribes they battles against? How was it just to order Moses to slay 3,000 Jews for breaking 1 of the commandments that they hadn't even recieved yet? And so on, and so on... So he murdered millions but without malice? Seems a little coldblooded, doesn't it? I wouldn't call that just.
it is just because of who god is--his nature and what he deserves because of it. he deserves to be loved and glorified. ive heard it explained this way---god is who he is and he cant go against it--his nature, if you will. he can not be in the intimate presence of unholy. by his nature he had to smite sodom, the philistines, and kick adam and eve out. by the same token, he cannot accept the unforgiven into heaven. whether the bad jews knew it or not they were bad. ignorance of the law ..., you know.
Believe what you want. The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. Which would you rather do..lay waste to entire nations..or sacrifice your own son to save a group of people who constantly turned their back on you. I would say that God's actions in the New Testament were no less shocking, and moving, than in the Old. Your mind is made up...it's not my place to force you to believe in anything. You've heard the "Good News" along with just about everyone else on this planet. What you choose to do after you hear it is up to you. I am not accountable to you, but to God...so I really couldn't care less about what your opinion is of me. I'll take my chances with the route I've chosen. You are obviously more than happy to walk your route. I guess we'll both see where they lead. How many times do you have to be told that They are the same Person? He is same God today that He was during the time of Moses. He is the same God today that He was during the time of Paul. He is the same God today as He was in the Old Testament and the New. No..and that's not what he's saying in this case. I'm sure supa does believe that much of the Bible is allegory, but that's not the point here.
dont kid yourself. a vast majority of "Christians" think there is more than one way to heaven and who knows how many think youve got to be good to get into heaven---i think a small fraction of churchgoers, not to mention the general U.S. public have heard and understand the Good News.
I never said they "understand". I said most of the world has "heard"...which is true. Hearing and understanding are two different things.
Well if you want an idea of how to reconcile a God who punishes with one that rewards I would say look at parents. My father was loving, giving, compassionate, and he also tore my ass up when I stepped out of line. Sometimes I thought my punishment far exceeded my indiscretions, but he never stopped loving me, nor did I think he stopped loving me. I didn't see him as a vengeful, hateful father. I saw him as a loving father doing what he had to do to keep me in line. I didn't always understand his methods or intent, but I was a child and how is an eight year old supposed to fully comprehend the complex motivations of his father? I understand his motivations the closer my life has come to resemble his, i.e., a parent. I look at God in much the same way and accept that there are some things that I really don't fathom today. In time, I may have a better understanding. For example, as a young man, the very painful death of my father shattered my will to accept things I could not change and I turned away from God. As I got older, I can look back at my experiences as a result and realize the value of this personal tragedy. I grew stronger, but as a young man, I had no understanding of this. Some people never do. Edit: Please forgive the overuse of the word understand. I hope you understand.:lol:
You take an arrogant stance as some enlightened dude and belittle the simpleton brainwashed believer. You lump all people of faith in with one brush and assume a lack of some learned knowledge that you possess that would free us from our bonds. A great many believers are well read and perfectly rational and came to very different conclusions about the world, life the universe and everything. Your arguments are irrational because you refuse to acknowledge the context of your source. Your understanding is limited because you are cherry picking verses without understanding the full meaning. The OT God is no different than the NT God. Its the same dude. We just see different sides. We see how He relates to nations in the OT and how he relates to each of us individually in the NT.
