NC I see a little of all in this. I have a hard time believing Pres Obama did a Nixon and ordered this in detail. It could compare to Henry II asking to be rid of that damned priest (Thomas a'Becket) and his knights running off to kill. The IRS and possibly the 1st amendment/leak issues could have come from close advisors thinking they were doing what Pres Obama wanted. However as damning to me would be if it was only low level staffers acting on their own. The reason is that it shows the lack of strong moral leadership. One or two widely spaced incidents in a term can be attributed to a few bad apples. Look at this though there ar so many incidents coming down at once and to me it is evidence of poor or corrupt leadership from the top. I fear it is a systemic problem caused by President Obama's belief that he is morally superior and any action required to put his programs in place is justified. That attitude is permeating his administration and giving leave for low leval staffers to act as they think he would want.
They last few weeks have shown so much to be angry about and concerned that President Obama is either the empty bag of air and a poor leader or truly dangerous. The IRS scandal , AP, Fox and now Verizon and this article showing the CIA doesn't always know who it was killing in Drone strikes. http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/05/18781930-exclusive-cia-didnt-always-know-who-it-was-killing-in-drone-strikes-classified-documents-show?lite Is it incompetance or corruption or worse. We see the director of the IRS was passed into the WhiteHouse 157 times while the IRS was doing dirty to the tea party. Holder knew and approved of the taps on Rosen's phone but said he didn't have anything to do with it. There is too much smoke here not to have some fire. I would rather they all be result of incompetance rather than corruption but The President as a leader is responsible ("The Buck Stops Here"). The administration has at best shown a cavilere disregard for the law and truth. Thhe administration under the president is either as incompetant as W's or as corrupt as Nixon's. Choose your poison.
Winston, you are usually more measured than this. First thing, turn off the Fox news and Rush Limbaugh and start thinking for yourself again. First for the IRS scandal since you made multiple reference to it: The 157 visits that you refer to are actually the amount of times that the IRS commissioner was on the guest list to the white house; the guy actually visited the white house 11 times out of those 157 invitations, and 8 of those were related to easter egg hunts, christmas tree lightings, etc. Hardly a record of criminal mischief, although I've noticed lately that Fox news cannot get past that number, even though it's completely untrue. Also, on the IRS scandal, it doesn't go above Lois Lerner. We may learn that she had political motivations but this notion that this scandal will rise to the level of Watergate is foolish. The real scandal in the IRS thing is that political groups from both stripes are actually allowed to receive tax exempt status under the auspices of "social welfare?" Really? That's the real scandal here in my opinion....where are the forms for you and I to apply for tax exempt status, Winston? I never received mine, did you? Worse, while they are applying for tax free status and filling our airwaves with propaganda, congress is debating over whether they are going to raise your taxes or mine. Seem kind of fucked up to you? It does to me. Now, for the other host of "scandals" that you brought up......every single thing that you listed is 100% completely legal under the Patriot Act. I didn't say it was right or moral, but it's definitely legal. Further, there is mounting evidence that the DOJ had every right to be questioning the leaks because they were jeopardizing our CIA agents in the field and could have compromised years worth of intel and case work. So before you get yourself whipped into a frenzy, let's let all the facts come out. The Republicans do not have a very good track record for telling the truth, or accepting the truth when it is smack in front of their faces so I doubt seriously they will ever admit it. Lastly, the Benghazi "scandal." All I need to say is this: Tom Pickering, the former Republican congressman who conducted the Benghazi investigation, gave his testimony to Issa's committee behind closed doors and to date Issa and his group will not release those transcripts.....want to know why? Because his investigation found no wrong doing and Issa could never let that come out in the press because it would mean he's been lying all along.....which he has. But go ahead and over play your hand on these "scandals." Remember 1996 while you are at it.
Nice try NC but your rebuttal doesn't hold water. First the IRS investigation is in its infancy. There are reports (not from Fox) that several IRS staffers claim they got direction from "Washington". There has been no answer from anyone who or where the idea and order to focus on conservative applicannts came from. This needs to be answered. Second to argue about who should receive tax free status may a valid question BUT IT IS NOT germane here. It is merely a deflection from the question of the moment. Let the facts come forth before you stand on your comment that it goes no higher than the fool Learner. As to the AP, and Fox warrants they were at least immoral and certainly overreaching. In the AP case, the AP had agreed to hold the story until the Obama administration started to leak the info. Any blood would be on the administration's hands. Rosen was painted as a target against ALL tradition. Even Nixon didn't go after the press in the Pentagon Papers leak. That it was chilling to whistle blowers is agreed on by all. The Verizon metadata mining may have precedent but does that make it right? I find it scary that with minor tweeks the NSA can check my spending habits rather than check if I am a terrorist. I was not in favor of this untrammeled power whether handled by Rs or Ds and said so when it was enacted. I do stand by my point that the Obama administration is hypocritical. Rather than Benghazi, I noted a NBC report that the CIA didn't know who it was killing in at least some drone attacks. Doesn't that strike you as a very casual approach to something that carrys the pride and power of the US to the world? If President Obama personally ordered those hits, is he crimminally responsible? Don't remember saying much about Benghazi except it was poorly handled in every way. Likely not criminal but criminally stupid. My point NC is that this administration is led byeither an incompatent or a crook. He either doesn't care that his people are so venal an incompetant or is so himself. With so much smoke the failure of this administration is on fire.
Its germane in this op as well NC. The IRS scandal seems to be reaching higher than some mid leval bureaucrat and getting political. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-06-07-04-27-27
Every bit of this is conjecture, Winston. I am more than willing to allow the IRS investigation play out because, as I've said all along, those who did wrong need to pay the consequences with either their jobs or jail time, which ever is appropriate. Same thing for the other "scandals" but forgive me if I am a bit distrustful of conservative efforts to undermine this administration at all costs. In place of a real legislative agenda, conservatives continue to obstruct ANYTHING and this is just another effort to do just that. Could there be something to the IRS things? Sure, but I have a feeling that a year from now we will still be having congressional hearings about it but not a single person other than mid level bureaucrats will have bit the bullet. But their are elections next year and, especially right now, the Republicans have no other choice but to turn out their base on record levels. If any other thing happens the Republicans will lose more seats in the House. I'm not saying there was absolutely no wrongdoing, quite the contrary. That said, this level of corruption goes on in the bureaucratic side of our government all the time and spans both Republican and Democratic administrations. That doesn't make it right, just so. Again, those who did wrong need to pay for it, plain and simple. My point is that it is almost laughable that any of this rises to the level of high crimes as the Repulicans currently claim. Hell, the Lindsay Grahams and John McCains are even hesitant to call these high crimes because they understand that you can only cry wolf so many times before you turn into Michelle Bachmann and are relegated to posting a YouTube video in the dark of night to announce you aren't running again (not because you are going to lose or because of those darned investigations, but because you "want" to). If they were smart the Republicans would use their time to form a real platform that actually has a fighting chance in a National Election. In fact the Republicans that matter to the future of the party like Rand Paul are doing just that. Mean time, these dildo's like Issa are making a mockery of everything that is sacred about our system of justice. I didn't care for a good deal of GWB's politics but I never allowed myself to stoop to the level of calling him criminal or crooked. It was obvious to me that he was a Human being that cared a good deal for the country whom I just happened to have fundamental disagreements with as it relates to a whole host of issues. You may not like Obama's politics and God bless you for it, Winston, but you have absolutely no proof what so ever that he is a criminal or a crook, and you never will. Not because the Republicans won't claim it is true, just like they claimed that his birth certificate wasn't authentic or that he is a Muslim Socialist. But just like both of those, their claims are only meant to incite those who are easily swayed into fits, not to stand up in a court of law.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/polit...ill-release-irs-transcripts-165747.html?hp=l4 Here is proof that Issa and his committee are not telling the whole truth about the IRS scandal, Winston. You see, this kind of crap has become par for the course for the Republicans....they release the information that supports their story but exclude everything that calls their theories into question or blow them apart altogether. The exact same scenario unfolded over Benghazi so this is straight out of the Republican play book. I think you are confusing the fact that several Dems, including many Republicans, have implied that they will reserve judgement until the investigation is complete but I have heard no one imply that the White House has had any involvement whatsoever, quite the contrary. I go back to the point that you, nor the Republicans, have been able to offer one single shred of evidence that these "scandals" are anything related to the administration. Instead, there is a whisper campaign by the right that makes blanket insinuations like, "Leadership sets the tone..." This is a misleading statement that implies that Obama is responsible for every little government bureaucrat in every little po-dunk office in the country and that's just a lie. You say that the media are the ones who are bringing these allegations but the only "media" that I've heard making a big deal about this is FOX. Oh, yes, I forgot that they are "fair and balanced." I should never question them. I tell you what Winston....when you come up with some proof of what you claim....come talk to me....until then I don't want to hear it. This is all we've had from the fucking Republicans since the day Obama took office...whisper campaigns about bull shit. I'm sick of it. I'm sick of listening to conjecture masked as facts and packaged up as the truth. Out of all the allegations that have been leveled against the guy, not one single one of them has turned out to be what the right claimed.
NC you keep claiming I used Fox as my news source...now either you haven't been reading my cites or are delibertly coloring the comments. I NEVER USE FOX AS A SOURCE!. Look at them I use MSNBC, CNN, Yahoo, AP, NY Times and even the Huff Post. Are they rightwing mouthpieces? I think not. Did you bother reading them or are you getting your talking points from MoveOn.org? I am tired of you assuming I get my info from one place when I constantly cite others. I am glad to let the full transcript of the hearing be released and we'll see. I have to say Elijah Cummings is a left wing analog of Issa. He has called for Ws impeachment and tried to color every issue in his adminstration as Issa does Barry's. His word is shit to me. Seems you are getting a little sensative NC...maybe you should not look at it so emotionally but look again and see what you would think if these stories were about a conservative administration.
