How is he wrong? His point is probably the most accurate post so far. Just because we cannot see the end of the universe doesn't mean there is no end. And he's not saying that there is an end. His ocean analogy was perfect. At one point in time, people didn't have the technology to see where the ocean led. It wasn't infinite, but humans at that time didnt know it.
I did not say there is no end to the universe. There very well could be, but our inability to measure it is the definition of infinity. You mistake the concept of infinity. Mathematics defines Infinity as without measure or boundless. Changing the parameters of infinity to suit your argument does not work. You assume that we will develop the ability to perceive the finite universe, if it exists. There is nothing to substantiate that. I understand perfectly what you and martin are trying to say, but you are contradicting the very concept of infinity. The universe could be finite or it could be infinite, but because we cannot measure it, it is boundless, therefor infinite. I understand the obsession with believing only that which can be measured, but that is pure arrogance. We are not masters of the universe and there is plenty beyond our ability to understand, much less measure.
like i said earlier, this is nothing but a pointless redefining of words. like i also said earlier, mathematical infinity is a concept that we do not apply to tangible things. pi is infinite, but it wouldnt be if you had to write it out, because that would take up all the space in the universe. pi is not tangible, it is a concept, the universe is real. also pi describes a ratio, not a distance. if it described a distance it wouldnt be infinite, it would be less than 4 units long. two different questions. the concept of mathematical infinity does not apply and is pointless to bring up. ther term mean different things in math and in physics and cosmology. that is why the first sentence on the wikipedia page says: "The word infinity comes from the Latin infinitas or "unboundedness." It refers to several distinct concepts (usually linked to the idea of "without end" or "bigger than the biggest thing you can think of") which arise in philosophy, mathematics, and theology. In mathematics, "infinity" is often used in contexts where it is treated as if it were a number (i.e., it counts or measures things: "an infinite number of terms") but it is a different type of "number" than the real numbers." we were not talking about math, numbers we represent either in our brains or with symbols. we were talking about reality. you were just wasting our time. i certainly do not. when we are talking about math, we will make a note of that. we are not talking about math.
Mathematical infinity is what you choose to not apply to the tangible universe. Who is we? You and the frog in your pocket? It was an example of infinity and proof that infinity exists. It was not offered as proof that the universe is infinite. You can say that pi would be finite if you had to write it out, but you can't write it out. You also claim that it would take up all the space in the universe, thereby saying that you can take up all the space in the universe. You cannot prove this. Actually our universe and everything in it, is defined by mathematics. It is the only universal way of explaining how anything can be perceived. Coming from a person that must have everything definitively proven, I should be surprised that you don't realize this, but for some reason I am not. Interesting that when Red uses a definition, you disregard it. Now you use a definition in attempt to refute my argument. It matters little, again you prove my point for me. The universe is defined by math. Get over it. I was addressing Nutriaitch, hence the quote with his name in it. You should follow your own advice and learn to read.
people who understand the difference between counting numbers and infinitely precise ratios. you cant measure a distance in pi, it describes a ratio of one thing to another. a number that describes a distance is different. the reasons we cannot see the end of the universe, and we cannot get to the end of pi are not the same. to clump them together as examples of the immeasurable, and therefore infinite indicates a misunderstanding of the difference between different types of numbers. nutriaitch seems to understand this quite clearly. you missed the point, which was to illustrate how silly it would be to try to represent an infinite like pi in the real world. a symbol that represents an infinite idea is not the same as a universe that extends infinite miles. yes i know i am stupid. lets move ahead and pretend i am not. i specifically said it isnt the definitions that are the problem, it is the misuse of them. i point out the proper definitions for the contexts we are discussing. i guess my quotes from the head of astrophysics at oxford have no effect on you: "ESA: Is the Universe finite or infinite? Joseph Silk: We don't know......We do not know whether the Universe is finite or not." - Professor Joseph Silk, Head of Astrophysics, Department of Physics, University of Oxford, United Kingdom http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEMR53T1VED_index_0_iv.html you should show him your math skills and correct him.
your argument is completely sound to me. the universe certainly is not infinite simply because we lack the technology to measure it. its an unknown. as you said, just because the ocean wasnt measurable it didnt make it smaller than it actually was. I dont understand the difficulty in understanding that or misusing the definition of infinity to try and validate this. Your persistence is quite admirable. gives us something to read during long boring meetings. please continue.
the wierd thing is that dude seems to understand that. we all do. apparently he is just really really excited to only define "infinity" the way he was taught in math class. this thread has two high points: 1. red makes good natured fun of jesus making water into wine by claiming he can make water into tea. 2. the dude dimishes the value of the "we" i describe as on my side by calling them just me "and the frog in my pocket". i like both of those and will add them to my library of things i like to say.
red's made me laugh. that frog in pocket is something you hear around these parts everyday since like i was 7. still effective so use it on all your yankee friends when they say 'we'. then tell them how stupid they are time and time again because they dont agree with you. its so simple I cannot help you cant grasp my awesomeness seems to help.
