Not pointless at all. I noted that universe was infinite by definition. If you check any dictionary (how long has it been?) You will see that there are often several defintitions for many words, sometimes dozens. We have explored a couple of them here today. I picked the first one on the list, you picked one of the subsequent ones. Neither is more pointless than the other. One definition does, obviously. It happens to be the most widely used and accepted definition, I checked several dictionaries. You can't make the standard dictionary definition go away, just because you read a new theory on a Hawkings website. You evade strict definition of terms because it limits your grandiloquence.
immeasurableness is a function of who is doing the measuring. infinity isnt. a sum that we do not know is a sum nonetheless. what we can percieve has no effect on reality, we arent dealing with schroedinger's cat, we are talking actual macro things, real distances, measurable quantities. i just do not undertsand what is tripping you up here. i do not want it to be anything. it is what it is. unknown. in some contexts, some definitions are meaningless. it takes you too long to realize that and understand the context. you get points from me for using the word "grandiloquence". but you lose the points for not understanding how pointless it is to try and define the world with a dictionary. it goes the other direction. if you are eating bon bons, and i ask you if they taste good, you shouldnt reply with "of course, the word bon is french for good, so they are 2x good, look it up, jerkwad".
Again you prove my point. We are doing the measuring, and since we cannot measure the end of the universe, it cannot be proven to be finite. Actually our perception is reality, regardless of the planes of existence you are talking about. If you want an example of a sum that is immeasurable, try pi. Pi is an infinite decimal. Unlike numbers such as 3, 9.876, and 4.5, which have finitely many nonzero numbers to the right of the decimal place, pi has infinitely many numbers to the right of the decimal point. You keep stating the universe is finite as an absolutism, but this cannot be proven. Again you make the statement(without proof) that the universe can be measured in it's totality. It cannot. I don't understand what is tripping you up here. If you think nothing exists unless it can be measured, you presuppose that everything can be. Science has not proven that everything can be measured. This is the essence of infinity. Because you do not agree with the nature or definition of infinity, does not change reality. The universe is beyond measure. This is infinity.
not what i am saying. please pay attention, i am not saying the universe is finite. i never said that. you are arguing with a statement nobody ever made, and i do not agree with, and have said so repeatedly. when you learn to read, get back to me. ok, you are insane.
Yeah, you did. You are insisting that we are talking about "measurable quantities". The universe is not within our ability to measure. Perhaps you should at least learn to read what you write. I'm sorry you lack the IQ to grasp the concept of infinity, but that is your own problem. If you insist that the the universe is measurable, you are saying it is finite. There is no grey area here.
i didnt, i said over and over i do not know if the universe is infinite or finite. how many times would you like me to repeat it? context. i was saying that in opposition to your assertion that the size of the universe is somehow not governed by reality, but our ability to perceive it. as if the universe only exists because we can see it, and it changes as we can see more of it. i meant measurable in the sense that a mile is a mile. not measurable in its entirety. it was poor wording, considering how badly you are trying to put words in my mouth, but i would have thought the times i repeated that it is not known whether the universe is finite or infinite were enough already. i am not insisting that, i am screaming that i do not think that. listen closely. i am disputing the following statement you made: i am not saying the universe is finite, i am saying you do not know that it is infinite. please pay attention. just because we humans cant see the end of the universe doesnt mean it is infinite. what exists and wehat we have the technology to see and measure are not the same thing. it only means we cant see all of it. it may in fact be infinite, as i have stated before. but your logic is nonsense. if you misinterpret what i am saying again i will give up.
A mighty assumption on your part. I don't care if you claim to be straddling the fence of creation by saying that infinity cannot be proven, based on your assertion that it can be measured but has not been, yet. That is not what infinity means. You should quit, because this simple concept is obviously beyond your capacity to understand. Again, that is your problem.
wtf are you talking about? creation? straddling a fence? what? jesus christ. i dont think it necessarily can or cannot anything. i do not think you have any idea what i am saying, and you do not appear to give a damn how many times i repeat it. but i am patient, so i will repeat it again: we cannot see to the edge or end of the universe. that does not mean it is infinite, it might be. it might not be. that is as simple as i can put it. i can cut and paste it 400 more times if you need me to.
TheDude appears to be thinking that martin is talking with a sense of something to prove, but it is just the opposite. Basically, martin's only viewpoint is that we do not know anything and thus we cannot prove anything (yet). If the universe is infinite, then we will never know for sure because it could always be that we just haven't found the end yet. We can never prove that the universe is infinite. We could, however, prove that the universe is finite, theoretically - if that were the case.
I don't give a damn how many times you cut and paste it. I understand what you are saying and so does everyone else. The fact is, you are wrong. You don't understand the concept of infinity and again, that is your personal problem. Simply stating it does not make it correct.
