I still believe in "magic", I just think that science is pretty much the understanding and explanation of "magic". I really believe to be open to possibilities is one of the best traits a human can possess. I think too often people aren't thrilled by the many small and large miracles on Earth because many of these miracles have been understood and explained. Things really are amazing and I think trying to not be complacent will bring us closer to the wonder of childhood and really closer to God. On a side note, I imagine the Bible is much more meaningful in its original language, like the Koran is. I should probably learn Greek and stuff. To USMTiger, I really think you owe it to yourself to explore other religions and to try to fight the cynicism. The Christian tradition is full of ugliness to be found, but there is a lot of good as well. I think my belief in God was reinforced by a near death experience, which is kind of exceptional, but also by realizing the complexity of the human body and the complexity of plants and animals, and the precise nature of Earth's conduciveness to life. I really can't believe this complexity just happened randomly. I also found that reading snippets of Kierkegaard cleared up a number of my questions; it's a blend of Christianity and psychology (he's really tough reading, though). Life is irrational; living rationally can only bring you so much truth, kind of like in physics - we kind find the relative speed of objects on Earth, but the absolute speed is tougher because the speed of Earth, I think, is unknown. So we can find truth in this bubble that we are living in, but logic is limited in application outside the bubble. Taoism teaches to embrace the irrationality of life, to know that the world really can't be controlled. Buddhism teaches that everything is an illusion, and I believe they explain the ultimate state of being as utter stillness. I don't find any of this to conflict with Christianity, I just think that Christianity tells the story differently; less scientific, more creative. Don't give up on God - I believe that God is a concept; God is the feeling of love and all of the highest things that humanity aspires to. I believe in each of us, God is a blending of will and love. God is more ambiguous than I think you were taught, IMO.
Red,on any topic you could out debate virtually anyone ...pro or con. and that is a credit to you and your skills on the computer debating topics...but it doesn't neccessarily make you correct. Let me start in the beginning on the sixth day mankind was created and given dominion over the fish of the sea and beast of the field,etc...What does this mean?That all the races were created and made hunters and fishermen.The yellow race,black race ,white race,brown , all. God created these people ,saw that it was good...and rested on the seventh day. On the eighth day God creates a husbandman to the ground,a farmer...this man is not just the word adam...it is "eth ha adam" Adam with the article and particle.This is like an emphatic way of saying This specific man Adam.This is the man through whom's seedline Christ would come to save all God's children.Satan's first attempt at screwing this seedline up was in the garden.Also ,when Cain is banished into the land of Nod he says"they are going to want to kill me every where i go"Who is going to want to kill him? according to your theory there is no one else around.Who would he marry in the land of Nod.He didn't marry his sister. Not hardly... His second attempt came before the flood.Why was Noah spared?The bible says he was "perfect in his generations"meaning his seedline all the way back to Adam was uncorrupted by the fallen angels.It is obvious all the races survived the flood of Noah,look around.genesis chapter 6 verse 19 ...2 of every flesh...you have some proof that he is just talking about animals here?Noah and his family were the only Adamic people saved but all the races were also.They were either on the Ark or only the part of the world was flooded which contained the nephilim.Regardless,they survived. This is how Cain's children survived the flood of Noah,were called kenites{sons of cain}and became the scribes and bookkeepers for the true tribe of Judah. Red, probably 95 % of all Christian churches teach the whole apple in the garden story,which also means they support the Adam is the father of Cain geneology<so it shouldn't be to difficult to find someone's drawing of the adam's family tree with cain listed in it.That,however does not make it the truth.Incidently, You ask them about the "tree of life" and they say "that means Christ",then you ask them about the tree of knowledge and they say ,that is an apple tree. Yet every word pertaining to this event,Seed, sorrow{labor pains} touch {to lie with a woman},concepcion etc,etc..has to do with something other than eating a freaking apple.In fact when God says to Satan"I will put enmity between thee and the woman and thy SEED and her SEED...where is satan's seed.?..he just planted it ..right there in the Garden.And Cain is going to be the result. The writers of the King James bible in 1611 did their very best in translating it into english.When they were finished they wrote a 30 page letter to The king saying in effect" we did our best ,but this was the toughest work we have ever done and we may have made some misstakes.the reader of this bible needs to be able to check us out.the best way to do that is to look up the english words into the language in which they were written with a strong's concordance.
I believe in a creator. There is this universe here and it was created somehow. It had to have been created. But I have no way of knowing if the Creator is a diety, a phenomenon, some kind of all-powerful Star Trek entity, or simply the architect and steward of nature itself. Or even a personal delusion of mine. If God exists, we have no way of knowing what he wants from us. I don't "disbelieve all the bible stuff" because of a lack of evidence. I simply recognize folklore for what it is. I think much of the Bible is based in fact and it is undoubtably the finest ancient history, biography, geography, and literature in existence. Much is also allegorical and parabolic and some simply good yarns that were borrowed from other ancient texts. Bottom line . . . it is the word of holy men, not the word of God. In the end, we are all free to imagine God anyway that we want to.
kedo15, you believe the Garden of Eve story says that both Adam and Satan had children with Eve... and you believe that Adam's offspring and Satan's offspring have survived on Earth to this day (you made a big deal about how Satan's offspring survived the flood, for ex). You say that Adam's offspring are the 12-13 tribes of Israel, which you believe today to be the inhabitants of the United States, South Africa, Israel, and some of the countries in Europe. Does this mean that each of the approximately 180 other countries on Earth are populated by the offspring of Satan?
Nor does it make me incorrect. But I've managed to shoot your bucket full of holes, my friend. How do you know? Adam lived for nine hundred years, he may have had many hundreds of children. Look, my "theory" has noting to do with anybody else being around, that's your theory if Adam is not Cain's father. I agree the bible is full if inconsistencies. But Adam being the father of Cain simply isn't one of them and you keep quoting random scripture like it's supposed to mean something and still can't produce a verse that says Cain is Satan's son. It just ain't there. Give it up. I've already posted scripture where God says the exact opposite. So now, . . . just post the book, chapter, and verse where the bible says that anyone survived the flood except Noah's family. Just do that. And it still wouldn't prove them to be Cains descendants. It's taken from the Bible, amigo. Maybe there a good reason that 99% of all Christians believe that Adam is the father of Cain--because the Bible says so. ]Neither does it make it false. In fact it greatly suggests that is is true. You have taken a notion so far out in left field that I'm actually able to logically out-argue you using The Holy Scripture as evidence! How often does that happen! I'm having a ball here.:grin:
absolutely not...god created all the races on the 6th day. God loved them and was so pleased with what he had created that he rested on the 7th day .This was before..."the farmer "eth ha adam "was created on the eighth day. And they survived the flood of Noah,obviously. unless you can believe that 2 white people can procreate ,and one day ...poof...a yellow or red ...or black ..or brown person comes out.i don't think if i breed my black lab that one day ...poof... a golden retriever is going to pop out. You want to know where Satan's offspring are today?well this isnt an easy answer,but i will say that a lot will probably be with our true brother Judah,which would make it diificult to determine who is who...it isn't our place anyway.Has christ says in the parable of the tares...leave them alone and in the time of the harvest the reapers{angels}will gather together to burn first the tares...then they will gather the wheat into my barn. One more thing...there are seven churches mentioned in Revelation.Every one of them taught Christ.Christ found no fault with only 2 of the seven.they both taught the same thing...What was that? ...I know the blaspemy of those that claim to be jews but are not,and are the synagogue of Satan.Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia both teaching the same " a people claiming to be Jews but are not,but do lie teaching.Logically today ,if you are a christain ,it might be wise to be in a church teaching this fact.
Red ,you argue with the bible when it suits you and against it when it is convenient.You take every word literally when that makes your argument and figuratively when that does. i pointed out the fact that the very word Kenite means sons of cain{Cain's offspring } showed you were they started calling themselves jews and you say "no ,i believe in the flood taking out everyone." here is something you might enjoy... Garden of Eden Bible Study The story of the garden of Eden is one that many know. One thing that might be missing from the story of the garden of Eden, is what really happened in Eden on that day. I was told as a child that it had something to do with apples. Well, when I read it when I became older I found out that the word apple is not even in the story. Apples have nothing what so ever to do with what happened in the garden of Eden. I am going to try the best I can with this Bible study to explain to you what really did happen in the garden of Eden. Without knowing what really happened in the garden of Eden, we miss out on so much information that we need to better understand God's word. You may have never heard the story told like this before and it may come as a shock to you what really did happen. We as God's children must not be shocked at the truth of God's word. What you will read will be graphic at times but to tell you what really did happen that's the way it is. We can never let God's word be to graphic for us. If we do, then we are getting to self righteous for God and He does not like that. One other thing that we need to know is that God uses symbology in His word, as we shall see very soon. Genesis 3:1-20 V1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Here we have are first clue, the word serpent. Now we all know that snakes do not talk. This is not some special talking serpent but a name for a person. The place to find out who this person is, is the book of Revelation. Revelation 12:9 V9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. So now we know who the serpent is, Satan. Yes Satan was in the garden of Eden. That can be found in Ezekiel 28:1-19 where it talks about Satan before and after his fall. We also see how Satan works by using lies and twisting God's word to suite his needs. We can read what God really said in Genesis 2:16-17 Genesis 2:16-17 V16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: V17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Subtil means cunning (usually in a bad sense). Satan is very wise and cunning which is why we need God's help to make it in this world. Also keep in mind that God does not count days like we do. II Peter 3:8 V8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. V2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: V3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. We are not talking about real trees here but it is symbolic of people. Lets take a quick look at Jeremiah. Jeremiah 17:7-8 V7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. V8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit. Tree means to fasten (or make firm), i.e. to close (the eyes). It also means the spine (as giving firmness to the body) backbone. So you see we are not really talking about a tree at all. We are talking about a person, Satan. He is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan invented evil as he was the first one to sin which can be read in Ezekiel 28:14-15 Ezekiel 28:14-15 V14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. V15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Touch means to touch, i.e. lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphem., to lie with a woman). Adam and Eve were told not to touch the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in any way. As we found out that tree is really Satan we are talking about. Keep in mind that touch means to lie with a woman. That is a very important fact as we shall see very soon. V4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Here is Satan lying again. He knows good and well what God really said to Adam and Eve. They to knew what God said but they didn't listen. This is one of Satan's best tricks, taking the word of God and twisting it to suite his needs. As you probably already know that is how Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness. Satan will use God's word but twist it just a little so it becomes untrue. V5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Up to this point Adam and Eve have not sinned, they did not know what evil was. But when they touch the tree of the knowledge of good and evil their eyes shall be opened and they shall know what evil is. At that point, they have sinned. Lets take a look Genesis 2:25 and we shall see that they are not ashamed to be naked because they did not sin yet. Genesis 2:25 V25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. V6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Here we have the first sin of mankind. As you can see the word apple is nowhere in that verse, or any where in this whole chapter for that matter. The sin that was committed has absolutely nothing to do with eating apples. Now remember, the tree that is being talked about here is Satan. What Eve did was have intercourse with Satan. That's what the sin was and later we shall see that Cain's father is not Adam but Satan himself. This may be new to you and also may be a shock to hear. But remember that we must not let the truth in God's word shock us. That is really what happened, Eve had intercourse with Satan. Adam also took part, how and in what way I'm not sure. Seeing that Satan is supernatural, he could have appeared as a woman to Adam, maybe not. The point is that he did have a roll in what happened and did what God told him not to do. V7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Remember in Genesis 2:25 they were both naked and not ashamed. Now they are because they have not listened to God and sinned. Other things to notice here are that they are in a fig grove, not being around apples. Also they took the fig leaves and made aprons to cover themselves. A apron does not go over your mouth but over your lower body. They covered the private parts because they were ashamed of the sin that was committed. V8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. V9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? V10 And he said, I heard Thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. Here we have them for the first time afraid to be close to God. They new what they did was wrong because God told them not to do it. Now they have sinned and don't want to be around God. V11 And He said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? V12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. Adam is trying to lay the blame on Eve but he knows good and well that God told him not to do it. V13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. As we have learned already the serpent is Satan. So is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Beguiled means to lead astray, i.e. (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce. Satan by twisting God's word with his lies and the power he has by being supernatural seduced Eve. Satan is very crafty and as we read in Revelation 12:9 he is the one that deceived the world. V14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: This is God's way of letting Satan know He thinks he is the lowest form of life ever created. V15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. God is still talking to Satan here. Enmity means to hate (as one of an opposite tribe or party); hence to be hostile. Seed means seed; figuratively, fruit, plant, sowing-time, posterity. This tells us that there will be hostility between Satan's children and Eve's children. Satan's child will grow up and become the first murderer. Satan's offspring in time will bruise Jesus Christ's heel when they nail Him to the cross. Eve will have two children, Cain and Abel but they do not both have the same father. Adam is Abel's father while Satan is Cain's father. Later when we take a look at Adam's genealogy we shall find that Cain is not mentioned. That's because Adam is not Cain's father, Satan is. V16 Unto the woman He said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. God's sentence to Eve was that her sorrow in child birth would be greatly multiplied. God did not give her a tummy ache for eating to many apples. God gave her more pain in having children for having committed the sin of having intercourse with Satan. Any women ever have a hard labor during child birth? Well you can thank Eve for that. V17 And unto Adam He said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; V18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; V19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Adam did the wrong thing by obeying what his wife wanted to do and not obeying what God wanted him to do. God should always come first in our life's. Next time you start to sweat at work trying to make money to put food on the table, you can thank Adam for that. V20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. Eve is the mother of all living because it is through her offspring that Jesus Christ will be born. It does not mean we are all descendants of Eve but through Christ we can have eternal life. Lets continue are study in chapter 4. Genesis 4:1-26 V1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. V2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. Again means to add or augment (often adverbial, to continue to do a thing). Eve continued in labor and gave birth to Abel. Cain and Abel are fraternal twins, which means they came from two separate bags of water. They had separate conceptions. It is possible for fraternal twins to have different fathers, just like Cain and Abel did.
The Christian tradition, done in the way that Jesus truly intended, is a very good force in this world, and I am thankful for the words of Jesus, because without his temperance of the Torah, the world would be a constant armed struggle between Christians and Muslims, with both sides being equally militant. I understand and appreciate the sentiment you are conveying, but I wouldn't characterize my position as cynicism in any regards. Quite the opposite, atheism for me was almost the same as a Christians conversion experience, where I felt that my eyes were open for the first time. I realized how incredibly wonderous the Universe and life truly is, and accepted that this life is all that we have. Therefore, the way to achieve an "afterlife" is to make a positive mark on this world by your deeds, and by teaching your offspring to also do the best they can to make the world a better place. I don't feel the need to fill gaps in my knowledge with the supernatural. It doesn't give me comfort to think that another being is in the background, controlling the events in my life. I like to think that my place in life is the result of my own actions, the actions of my friends and family, combined with the randomness that life presents to me. I'd also like to think that love and humanitarianism comes from within me, not a spirit or deity. Many Christians are under the impression that atheism is a bleak, negative outlook at life. I can't speak for anyone else, but my experience has been quite the opposite - I truly think I finally see the universe for what it is, and it is more wonderful than I ever though it could be.
Red ,every single "random scripture" has you call them are scriptures in which Cain is either implied,the serpent is mentioned and generation or OF is used.In every case generation or of is used meaning offspring,seedline ,descendants.children of, you are OF your father the DEVIL He was a murderer from the beginning.Cain isnt named here ,but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put these 2 together. Not as Cain who was OF that wicked one. OF meaning offspring you serpents ,you generation of vipers...generation ..children of Christ giving the parable of the tares to the multitude...then the multitude is sent away and his disciplines basically say...we don't get it...can you explain to us the parable of the tares... when christ explains it ,this isnt a parable anymore. the bad SEED are the children of the wicked one. I don't think we are talking about barley here. the enemy that sowed them is the Devil Paul in 2 corinthians ch 11 i want to present you as a chaste virgin bride ,but i fear as the serpent BEGUILED Eve...this word beguiled is "wholly seduced" Regardless of what acts Cain had made he would be listed in Adam's geneology if he were Adam 's son.He isn't there.
