You humble me sir, The proudest moment of my life was putting on my uniform of my country for the first time, as was my son. On behalf or all that have worn it and are now, my most sincere thanks and regards!
I think you're buying into the war propaganda. We don't have the money to keep financing our foray into the middle east and it isn't necessary. Iraq was not a threat and neither is Iran. Iran is full of moderate Muslims that were pro-America before our diversion in Iraq. Our presence and actions in the middle east are making more anti-American Muslims, not less. Our national defense is weaker now than before we diverted our attention from Al-Queda to Iraq and our economic situation is steadily getting worse. If we continue pumping money overseas our national defense will suffer and our domestic situation will become even more unstable. There are more serious threats out there than terrorism. Iran will probably never be a threat to us. We really need to get our affairs in order before China surpasses our standing in the world, and don't forget Putin and Russia. We don't need a world empire, the world doesn't need us or want us to be a world empire. If we were to bring the troops home our national defense would be more sound, our respect around the world would grow, we wouldn't be breaking the bank abroad and we'd be able to work on the national debt and other domestic issues that are in serious need of attention. This is a serious situation and by embracing foreign intervention we will forge our own doom as a nation. Mighty Rome fell, Britian couldn't sustain it's world empire and is now a shadow of its former self. It could happen to us. Our pockets aren't shallow, but they aren't infinitely deep either. BTW, I think you're off base comparing Iran to Nazi Germany. Anyway, there are a number of methods for dealing with Iran; pre-emptive strike is way down the list (not to mention it flies in the face of Christianity and the idea of Just War). If we abandon our Christian values, are we really better than those we're saving the world from? I'm also pissed we haven't taken care of Al-Queda. Talk about a crock of BS.
What's to hate? This is a forum for political debate, its what we do here. I notice that you didn't directly address any point that I bought up. You can't just wave your hand and dismiss my objections, amigo. Is that supposed to discredit me somehow? :grin: You have no idea what I watch or where I get my data. I've made about 3,000 posts on the Iraq war here and if you bother to read any of them, you'll find that I back up what I say. Try me. If you imagine that I am just aping some particular media talking head and don't know my news, international geopolitics, or history, then you're making a mistake. Sometimes doing nothing is exactly the answer. The Iraq war was a foolish blunder, an unnecessary war without provocation, and a political disaster for America. You seem to confuse the important war against our enemies of 9/11 in Afghanistan with the stupid and self-destructive war that George Bush started in Iraq. You do understand that they are two separate issues? You invoke Chamberlain, so who exactly are we appeasing here? Your analogy makes no sense. Japan attacked us and Germany declared war on us. The Iraq War is nothing like WWII and is an even worse comparison. We started this war. It was elective and a mistake of the highest order, diverting oour vital human and economic resourses away from the fight with Al Qaida and putting in a poor position with our deadly old adversaries the Russians and the Chinese. We have very different ideas of who is being short-sided here. No one needs to "run and hide". We have bases and forces throughout the region. We just need to quit this endless patrolling of people who hate us and want us gone. We already won the war and gain nothing from staying longer. The top brass know we need to get out. The retired generals are becoming quite strident about it. The soldier blogs give a very teling picture, too. Many think they are being wasted pursuing a failed policy that is clearly going nowhere. We are abusing our fine military by giving them an unwinnable political mission such as this occupation. The only hope for this country is for incompent fools like George Bush and his blind sycophants to be replaced by intelligent, pragmatic leaders, hopefully moderates, instead of right-wing idealogues. Unsubstatiated alarmist predictions just don't cut it anymore, my friend. We have been lied to much too often and so have you. Take the blinders off and look around. We are violating the first law of holes in Iraq. When you dig yourself into a hole, you don't just keep digging it deeper. You dig your way out and regain your strength and mobility. Staying in Iraq is hurting us, a fool can see it. They got nothing we need. This is no place for Flashy! We will survive by being smart and resourceful, not overbearing and overreaching. Resolve alone is simply not the answer when the mission is so badly flawed. We have to play it much smarter than that.
I agree with you about the OBL thing. This should have been concluded a long time ago as far as I'm concerned. Excuse me, but you "DO" need to read your history, or shall I find it for you. Fascism is fascism no matter who preaches it or what country supports it. Do you deny that the Pres of Iran got on world TV and expressed his desire to destroy Israel? Man, if you people don't get you're heads out of the sand and wake up...Look I'm tiring of this thread, its obvious that neither one of us is gonna agree on this thing. So I,m willing to let it go. I find it interesting that 3 of you decided to blow up all over me because I see things differently. Maybe because my family has served this country since the war of 1812 I'm just a tad "hawkish". Bottom line is this, whether we're in Iraq or not, no matter who's throwing the bombs at us or flying planes into buildings, there are real credible threats out there that have to be dealt with. Those who are brave enough to wear the uniform and their families have to pay the price for everyone else. Mark my word, if we don't get involved with things "over there", sooner or later its going to get to our streets. Thankfully there are still some of us that will draw the line to make sure that doesn't happen. Those folks need our support so they can do that job. Iraq has been a mess, but it is getting better. Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong, but I know better from talking to the guys who have served there. I'm sorry you guys don't. You're position on nation building is a crok! I'm done...you guys win. Now take it out on someone else.
Do you honestly think Iran would ever declare war on Israel? I mean come on that is like Cuba declaring war on us. It would be a joke. And don't even get me started on the translation of when he made that speech, apparently you have been watching CBS too long. And I hate to say this but I'm going to anyway. I'm tired of people that have served this country invoking that into they are better Americans and know more about this or that. That is just a shame.
This is a political discussion forum, amigo. Why are you taking it so personal when people disagree with you? Why else do you post here other than to discuss your views with others who have different viewpoints? It seems like you expect us to just say "Gee, you're right", when you haven't convinced us. I don't take your comments personally, I simply respond to them with my view and give my reasons for thinking so. So, you assume our families have never served this country, just because we disagree with you? We can't be patriotic like you because we disagree? This is flag-waving at its worst. I'm a tad Hawkish, too. My objections to the Iraq War are not based on notions of "peace" or other "Dovish" ideas, they are based on the fact that this is a stupid occupation to be engaged in. I'm very pro-military and support having a larger military force. I just don't want to see it squandered by politicians whose policies are failures. This is happening right now, ask your military friends how our readiness has decreased in the last four years. What I advocate is SMART war, which Iraq is surely not. I've endorsed our smart wars like the Cold War, Panama, Grenada, Bosnia, and Serbia. I've not endorsed STUPID wars like Vietnam, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq. Sometimes a president screws up. When it happens he must fix the problem, difficult as it may be, not go onward with more failure as if resolve alone were the solution.
This is a political discussion forum, amigo. Why are you taking it so personal when people disagree with you? Why else do you post here other than to discuss your views with others who have different viewpoints? It seems like you expect us to just say "Gee, you're right", when you haven't convinced us. I don't take your comments personally, I simply respond to them with my view and give my reasons for thinking so. So, you assume our families have never served this country, just because we disagree with you? We can't be patriotic like you because we disagree? This is flag-waving at its worst. I'm a tad Hawkish, too. My objections to the Iraq War are not based on notions of "peace" or other "Dovish" ideas, they are based on the fact that this is a stupid occupation to be engaged in. I'm very pro-military and support having a larger military force. I just don't want to see it squandered by politicians whose policies are failures. This is happening right now, ask your military friends how our readiness has decreased in the last four years. What I advocate is SMART war, which Iraq is surely not. I've endorsed our smart wars like the Cold War, Panama, Grenada, Bosnia, and Serbia. I've not endorsed STUPID wars like Vietnam, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq. Sometimes a president screws up. When it happens he must fix the problem, difficult as it may be, not charge onward with more failure as if resolve alone were the solution.
He got your point the first time... I know, not funny, but I couldn't resist. :hihi: The board is so slow these days.
1: No, I never took it personal, but apparently you guys are. You chastise me because I think I'm right. But in the same breath you passionately seem to think "you're" opinion is dead on, and mine holds no value. 2: I "never" meant to imply for a minute that my family was in the least better than yours. Just relating "my familiy's" history. 3: Like I said before, we're never gonna agree on the reasons behind a lot of this. You see it your way, and I'll see it mine. Best we leave it that way. 4: I don't disagree with "everything" you said, but a lot of it, I just felt like 3 on 1 was a bit unfair. 5: I've had enough of this one as I said earlier...enjoy your day "bubba"!
We chastise your ideas, not you, my friend. That's what debating is all about. Perhaps a thicker skin is required to get into political arguments here. As do you. A discussion requires two sides. But ,we are here to try to understand why you think that way. I have had my mind changed in such discussions, but our arguments must withstand scrutiny to be convincing. You are welcome to challenge mine. You should have been here during the 2004 election, when I was the lone voice against Bush around here. Many on your side of the argument have changed their minds about the war. Uhhhh, . . . OK. You're giving up awfully easy. When you cut and run, the terrorists win. :wink:
