don't let your hatred for BB cloud the fact that before he was one the roids he was a VERY good player, and a**hole, but a very good player. The guy was a 3 time MVP w/ 400 HRs before he went to the needle so he was hardly That's why a lot of people don't understand why Barry felt the need to go to the needle. He was a lock Hall of Famer with out it. I can understand joe player who is out of the league if isn't on roids. Barry was great and really didn't need it. His ego just got in the way and couldn't take the fact that McGwire and Sosa were getting all the press.
Bonds was a terrific player when he was just a skinny ballplayer. It's hard to know for certain when he started taking steroids but he was a HOF worthy player before the drugs. He wouldn't have come close to breaking Aaron's mark without them though. So I do agree with putting an asterisk next to it.
:hihi: You know I can't let this thread pass me by! Of course I used to love Barry, but his fake snitching on his teammate FINALLY gave me a good reason to back away from him some. Of course I still like watching him and like his treatment of the media and fans. That's entirely inaccurate, and anybody that really follows baseball (LIKE YOU) knows that. Yet again, you bring the good stuff here Boondock. Barry's ego absolutely got in the way. So he did what the other top players in the league did, with the tacit endorsement of the league, and juiced up. Turns out he morphed into some amazing bionic man, well beyond the capacity of the other juicers. Now back to the point of this thread, I find it funny that most people only recognize Aaron as the home run king, rather than the best hitter in the history of baseball. His home runs are merely a notch in his belt. Barry breaking the record does absolutely NOTHING to lessen the accomplishments of Aaron. Of course there will be an asterick for anybody that gives a damn about the game. But accordingly, it doesn't change the fact that Barry hit those HRs within the enforceable rules of MLB. Anybody that cares about baseball and takes the time to care about the history of the game will hold Aaron in the same regard as before. Nothing Barry does can change that, just like it didn't change the accomplishments of Willie Mays. Like it or not, cheating aka getting artificial performance advantages is part of the fabric of the game. Run through the Hall of Fame, and you'll see that I'm right. Spit balls are probably the easiest example, while institutional racism is probably more of subtle form of cheating. Baseball presents itself as having a consistent standard by which to measure stats, but that's obvious silliness. Segregation, 4 v. 5 man rotations, spit balls, changing park dimensions, TOYING WITH THE DENSITY OF THE BALL (well documented), talent-reducing expansion...blah blah blah. The list goes one. My point is that nothing that Bonds can do will diminish the accomplishments of Aaron in the eyes of people that matter. And the tar-and-feathering routine by the very people that profitted from his juicing is laughable at best.
I just noticed this in your post, and I applaud it completely. I think we're kind of on different sides of this argument, but this tends to show that we actually might not be. This is the distinction that makes the MLB Roids story one of the more intriguing story lines of the past 50 years or so.
I normally agree with a lot of your posts, but not this one. Yes, in the eyes of the followers of the game TODAY will still hold Aaron to the same standards. But it's the next few generations, who will not look at them the same way. Already, the 61 homers Maris hit is an irrelevant number. Roger Maris "died" that day McGuire hit his 62nd in 98. Maris isn't in the Hall of Fame, and his name will soon disappear from baseball lore. Aaron is in the Hall, but if/when Barry passes him, then guys like A-Fraud or Pujols also pass him down the road, Hammerin' Hank leaves our minds. When my 5 year old becomes a little older (10 or so) and he starts looking in history books, he'll see Barry's name not Hank's. And as the generations pass, he will be forgotten more and more. To me, this is all but an acceptable. Maris didn't live to see the day the asterisk was removed from his name just because he played in 8 extra ball games, something he had no control over. But Barry will get to see himself as the king even though he actually cheated, something he did have control over.
This is a little different. No way does Hank leave our minds. Unlike Maris, Aaron is one of the best players of all time, not just home run hitters.
I believe a permanent asterisk should be placed in the record books for those players in the steriod era who were on the juice. You just can't compare them to clean players.
well fellas, ive been trying to explain to you there will need to be asterisks from now til the end of time because science is ahead of the game and always will be. look around the league this year as compared to last. todd helton is 30 lbs heavier a year or 2 later after everyone claimed they just coincidentally went on the atkins diet in the offseason. giambi looks to be back to his 250 self after reporting in barely 2 bills just a season or two ago. pudge is still pudge-lite however. he musta liked the change but he gets paid for defensive numbers unlike the above. its widely known hgh isnt even tested for just like the roid era was ignored. same script, same actors, different drug(s). buster olney even reported while checking out the cactus league this spring that players looked much larger than just a season ago. so while we like to point out the obvious and want to pretend how obvious the steroids were back then, we are once again ignoring whats currently right in front of our eyes. and yet again, nothing is being done by mlb regarding testing, reporters are once again overlooking the obvious and we as fans are filling the seats. and regarding nutria's belief that aaron and the others will slink into obscurity, I agree. But i think that will be because eventually all the sacred records, or any records will become meaningless. everything will be become so blurred due to drug eras, asterisks all overlapping it will lose its meaning. baseball, being the one sport who's history is its foundation, will lose what makes its sacred. and thats going to be a sad day for everyone involved.
